RPG =/= larping simulator.

I play RPGs to do things I can't easily (or at all) do in real life. What's the point of taking a dump in a game when you do it every day in real life?

If there is straight love in Skyrim, it should as well be gay love too.

I'm going to say no it would not be bestiality in any form. Humans are ape-like. Argonians are lizard-like. The Khajiit are cat-like. Even in the form that walks on all fours, the Khajiit are still sentient people. So no not at all, since they are still people in the Elder Scrolls world. It's more akin to human-Klingon relations in Star Trek, etc.


As has been said this isn't Earth. Secondly even if it was this reminds me of a Deep Space Nine episode. Captain Sisko (who is black) doesn't want to go to a holoprogram to have fun, because it takes place in an early 20th Century casino, a place black people would never have been welcomed equally. His girlfriend replies that even if that was the case, the program represents how it should have been. That holo-program in the show ignored the historical racism in the interests of presenting fun for the characters. Just as for TES, it doesn't need to throw homosixuality in your face, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist just because such times were extremely bigoted to anyone slightly different back then.

There are references to homosixuality and bisixuality in TES as others have said. There's the diary you recover in a Fighters Guild quest in Oblivion for example where the guy is talking about his "beautiful male" companion as well, if I missed someone mentioning it. There's also the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Ahzirr_Traajijazeri that includes the line:
"Life is short. If you have not made love recently, please, put down this book, and take care of that with all haste. Find a wanton lass or a frisky lad, or several, in whatever combination your wise loins direct, and do not under any circumstances play hard to get. Our struggle against the colossal forces of oppression can wait."

That skips the whole homo/bi/heterosixual debate and jumps directly into the territory of group "activity."

I wouldn't mind if it's how it was in Oblivion and Morrowind. It's acknowledged in both, if not in your face. I wouldn't mind gay, bisixual, or inter-species relationships being encountered in Skyrim though. They just don't need to draw extra attention to it. They can simply exist.

Implementing sixual diversity into the world in a natural way would be excellent - not because it would mean including gay characters as such, but because of the maturity of writing and design philosophy it would point to. A fantasy world without any sense of interaction (sixual, romantic, or otherwise) between NPCs is as shallow and unconvincing as a world without any sense of conflict, of heroism, of violence...

These things need not be judged within the fiction -- and a strong dose of realistic subjectivity does wonders for a fictional setting's depth -- but they ought to be demonstrated to exist. It's probably true that a heroic fantasy action RPG ought to feature a deal more violence than romance (for example), but to write one out entirely is to diminish the impact of the other. I think this is true of all but the most obscure and taboo real-world practices. If the world shows us that men slay other men with steel swords, and that men and women lose their hearts to one another, then it also should show us that two men or two women can love one another as well.

How a game shows this is probably a much more straightforward question to answer. Open-world, single-player heroic fantasy action RPG? Implication. So many game designers, quest writers, published authors and roleplayers overlook the power of implication. It's the difference between someone complaining about a feature, and never knowing the feature is there; it's the difference between "distasteful" and "subtle"; and when your focus is on violence and heroism, it's the way to introduce sixuality, of any kind.

On a more personal note, I think homosixual themes in fantasy are great, and just as I wouldn't mind offending close-minded homophobes, I wouldn't mind offending close-minded homosixuals either (eg, by featuring an evil character who happened to be gay). So I hope they are implied at some point, just as I expect heterosixual relationships between NPCs to be implied. Showing the actual acts only works in film, of course... game graphics aren't good enough yet not to look ridiculous in the attempt.

I don't care one way or another if there are homosixual relationships in the game or not. While there are plenty of hints of sixuality in the games, none of it is 'in your face' or a focus. If they change that and have more noticeable relationships and decide to add more homosixuality, it should be treated like the heterosixuality is - something that's just there - since I don't think homophobia is as prevalent in Tamriel as RL (though I'm not sure about that, does anyone know any lore concerning sixuality in Tamriel?)

I have a question though. How should homosixual relationships be portrayed in Skyrim? I mean, besides two characters of the same gender living together, since I doubt we'll see NPCs going around holding hands, hugging or kissing even in straight relationships. I don't know about you but when I talk to a stranger the first thing I say isn't "I'm straight" so how would we know if a character is gay or not? I guess they could mention their partner in conversation but that couldn't be the only approach since there would probably be some single homosixuals as well. Maybe NPC's could bring their partners gifts occasionally? What do you think?

I wouldn't mind it but I'd much, much, much rather see them focusing their effort at making this the best Elder Scrolls ever. Besides, Nirn doesn't really reflect our world in my opinion.

I would like to see gender confusion in Skyrim, even though that won't be in the game. But gender identity crisis is something that I'm sure exists in the TES universe (aurbis). In fact, the mod I'm helping with, Pelagiad Expanded, may have one same six male couple and possibly a female with gender identity confusion; a girl who feels she is a man in the wrong body. I feel that if there is going to be a same six couple, having it between two men is something that is not as popular or mainstream as it is when it's between two females.

So yes, I'm all for sixual diversity in elder scrolls. There was some what of a six scene in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah_%28Daggerfall%29 between a dark elf and an argonian. Interspecies six is kinda diverse I'd say.

I agree.

There are other games to suit your needs/wants.

Just a random recollection, and I don't know if it was mentioned in the thread previously, but I distinctly remember in The Real Barenziah, a certain Dark Elf who had interactions with a Khajiit. There was even a temple-censored edition that cut that part out (but still kinda implied it) but you can still read the whole series on The Imperial Library.

Also, in Chorral there was an Imperial man and a Dark Elf woman living together (and I remember the Dark Elf mentioning something about the townsfolk not approving).

So I think in a sense it's not unheard of in the TES lore for such things to happen, and that it may even to a certain extent be tolerated within certain bounds but it's probably one of those subjects that's implied or just none of the player's business.

:facepalm:

Ah, Kanji Tatsuya. My favorite P4 character. Though I always considered him pansixual more than gay, as he still seems attracted to Naoto when he finds out he is actually a she.

Anyways, I don't really care if its in the Elder Scrolls games, as the characters don't seem to leave as much of a lasting impact on me in western RPGs. Hopefully this will change enough so that if a character is gay or lisbian, I'm not just like "Oh." And instead going "Oooh! It all makes sense now!" and still not change my opinion on that character.

I bet there will be straight couples and possibly even families represented in TES V, and I wouldn't mind seeing more "diverse" variations. I suspect there won't be any (wasn't it streamlined away in Oblivion?), but I cannot freely express my opinion about what I think about the reasons for that, or what I think about the idea that there absolutely must be "diversity" in TES V.

For me TES is an escape from reality, not something that should represent reality. Of course Bethesda could add homosixuality, pink houses, rapmusic, 9mm glocks, cars, Tv , etc all in the name of diversity, but I really don′t think it would improve the gaming experience.

I just want to play Skyrim. I just want to run around slaying monsters and exploring the land.

If there are gays, that's cool. I'm not gonna care. I have no problem with them.

I just want to run around a fantasy kingdom and not have Todd go "HEY GUYZ! THESE PPLZ ARE GAY!!!"

Okay, cool. Do they want me to talk to someone for a skill training? Want me to clear out a cave of goblins? Do they know a tip that will help me further advance a quest I'm working on?

That's all I care about.

Yes to sixual diversity in Skyrim, in the context of generally more meaningful rerlationships than those in Oblivion (not played earlier games so can't comment).

It would be good if some background to the sixual mores of the society was established (perhaps by way of an in game book). There could be a side quest whose plot turned on a conflict against those mores (eg interspecies relationships involving Argonians are frowned upon and a couple are being blackmailed).
A few bits of dialogue to back this sort of stuff up would be good, plus a few unimportant characters living in greater or less secrecy in alternative types of relationship, same six, inter species, whatever.

This is probably not the best subject to talk about. Anything involving kids needs to keep at the Nck Jr level, 'kay?

Skimming through the thread, it seems that most people either want relationships between NPCs or they don't care one way or the other. So let's have them, it makes the world feel more real and doesn't detract from anyone's dungeon romping.

And if you have NPCs with the capacity to love each other, homosixuality is a logical next step.

IMHO it would be utterly fantastic if the game adressed attitudes towards homosixuality and cross-species relationships in some way. Most games that include homosixuality pretty much just sneak it in and don't comment much on it, but that's not really the Elder Scrolls way. It could be a political issue and 'rumours' topic, similar to slavery in Morrowind.

The ES games have for me always been reflections of our world, not just escapism. Which is probably why I prefer Morrowind and its vying factions? Oblivion had more of a fairytale atmosphere, the only conflicts were between humans and monsters... The world was 'the way it was' and nobody seemed to want to change things.

So... I would like all kinds of relationships to be included, and I want people to have opinions - sometimes bigoted and shortsighted - on others' relationships.

Like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ahnassi,_a_Special_Friend in Morrowind, who didn't care what species her new male special friend was...



See http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Crassius_Curio in Morrowind and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Dumag_gro-Bonk in the Shivering Isles.

They've been represented before, can't see why they wouldn't be again. :shrug:

Next!

................... What can I say, I mean............... Seriously dude?

I agree with most of what has been said in favor of sixual diversity. It shouldn't be over the top, and it should feel natural. In Morrowind, I had the general feeling that any NPC could be a homosixual or have some sort of "strange" sixual preference, and it wouldn't be a big deal (apart from maybe several prude Redoran noblemen). With Crassius Curio (and his Lusty Argonian Maid), Ahnassi, The Real Barenziah and Boethia's Pillow Book, the game felt very open-minded in a simple way.
So that's something I'd like to see again. I don't need any quests revolving around the issue of sixual preferences, just a general atmosphere and a couple of NPCs that represent certain preferences.

However, I'd *love* to have a gay sidekick. Like Wallace from Scott Pilgrim, if anyone knows that movie here. But I guess that'll have to wait until mods start coming out.

Now people keep on saying this, but it just isn't true.

Morrowind and Oblivion both (I haven't played earlier TESes) had admittedly sanitized versions of brothels and stuff, and in general there is the occasional reference to sixuality. For realism's sake I think that should be upped in V, I just can't picture a rowdy Nord society completely scrubbed clean of this sort of thing.

Then there's sixual diversity - as far as I know TES lore doesn't say anything about it. And why should it? As somebody noted, TES lore doesn't ape any kind of religious misogyny, so it makes no sense for it to ape religious homophobia either. Dragon Age has a similarly somewhat-medieval fantasy world, and sixual diversity is a normal and accepted part of its world. I think it's perfectly reasonable and definitely worthwhile to have a mention of it here and there in V, and if there are characters who can "romance" the PC (to the extent that there is romance in a Bethesda game.. a one-sentence resolution, generally), then I think there should be same-six options too.

People seem to think that any acknowledgment outside of the most rigid social "norms" is going to come off as awkward/pandering/unnecessary/waste of resources in a videogame. Did Arcade Gannon come across as any of those things to anybody? I wouldn't have thought so.

OP might have more success at the BioWare forums. People around these parts generally put more importance on other aspects in TES games.

I would love to see more diversity in elder scrolls, and in the world of fiction in general. Be it on tv or movies, in books or in games.

I think it is important that our cultural expressions portray our real life diversity. If some things are consistently taboo it only helps to further stereotypes and can promote an askew view of things. In the very old days of hollywood cinema it was unusual to see coloured men as the lead in films. It is good that that was set aside, and nowadays cinema is not silently racist. Because I think that is what it was. If you exclude certain groups of people from making an appearance, you kind of give a judgement. It is as if youre saying that it is not a valid way to be.

I also think that when people never see a black (or gay or whatever) person it is easy to think these people are wrong in some way. I think it is important that these things are shown, so that people can see that people are just people, like they are.
People with hopes and dreams, people that get hurt and bleed, just like they do. It is easy to hate the unkown, harder to when you see its just like you are.

As a gay man I often found it difficult when growin up that I had hardly anything I could relate to romantically in popular media. In books, films, games, the prince always gets the princess and never the prince, and that made me feel lonely.
It made me feel like romantic stuff in media just wasnt made for me, there was no place for me in those worlds.
Luckily these days some books and games and other media do have a place for non main-stream love.

I remember in oblivion during the fighters guild quest line I eventually found Viranus Donton's body and his journal. In that he speaks so lovingly about Eduard that I always thought they were an item.
Maybe Im wrong, it was very subtly done, but for me it added an extra layer of feeling to the quest. I could relate to the characters more.

I hope that in Skyrim there will be things like that.
But what I would really love to see is something more actual. Two men or women living together in some town somewhere.
Maybe have them say they dont care what people think. It shouldnt be a big thing. Subtle.

But for inclusion of all those kids out there who might feel like I once did. To break a taboo and to show a more diverse, open and representative of actual life kind of world, yes, I am all for diversity in Skyrim.

Edit: Reading this thread I see a lot of people under the mistaken impression elder scrolls is a medieval game series. It is not. It is fantasy and there is a fundamental difference. The world in wich it takes place is not medieval earth and medieval earth mores do not apply. At all.

I agree with you (my text is in bold)

I dont think it would add anything to the game.