Well at the very least you should be required to prove you got the stones for it.

I'm not sure about being required to be a certain level before joining but I sure do want advancement in guilds to be based upon level of skills. One of my beefs with Oblivion (which I did enjoy very much) was being able to advance based purely upon quests completed regardless of skill level.

I agree with this.

And not just a dumb Orc becoming Arch Mage, but in TES IV: Oblivion, that Orc can be come Arch Mage without using a single point of Magicka. There is only one quest in the quest line were you actually have to cast some spells, and they can be cast with scrolls that are provided.

Also agree with the above post that for some of the higher ranks it would be nice if you had to demonstrate your magic skills with some test or puzzle.

Similar things can be said of the Fighters Guild and other guilds. In Oblivion a wimpy mage that's never worn armor on punched someone can become the Master of the Guild, without ever using a weapon.

It would also be nice, in my opinion, if there were conflicting guilds - sort of like Morrowind - So that you couldn't become the leader of everything. That would result in meaningful choices with consequences, which I think are a key part of RPGs.

The stones for what could well be a life of magical research and publishing papers?

I would like skill requirements for advancing, but not for joining.

I am and am not in favor of skill requirements for guild advancement.

It's better to have skill requirements than to let a barbarian who never cast a single spell become arch-mage, but skill requirements are arbitrary and not the best solution. It would be better if guild quests themselves acted as a test for your skills. A mage faction would have to require you to cast spells, a fighter faction would have to require you to kill stuff, and a stealth faction would require you do stuff without getting detected.

The Thieves Guild in Oblivion actually came closest to that. In order to progress you had to first steal enough stuff and then perform a quest during which you were generally prohibited to kill people. But the Mages Guild questline was a disaster in that regard.

I'm not poopooing Oblivion (its still the game I have most hours in....) but it wasn't until I played Daggerfall that I realised how daft this was! Probably says more about me though eh?

Skills should not be required to get into guilds. Using your skills should. minimally levelled enemies means you should have to be a certain level before you progress simply because at too low a level, you will fail to pass a challenge.

I agree with this statement, It would be completely silly to run the mages guild with no magic abilities , or the merchants guild with no mercantile.

an alternate approach.
Instead of skill checks for joining or advancement have skill leveled perks linked to advancement/quest completion.

In the mages guild example when you attain the highest rank available you gain access to" the spell of whooparsery." but make it have a high skill requirement.

The reason for this is simple.It will avoid grinding to progress the story line ala Morrowind.Casting a low lvl flame spell on myself over and over and over ad inf just to find out my next quest is to collect dues was a pain and slightly discouraging.

The general consenus seems to be only the most adept should lead.I submit that it is probably correct but rarely happens IRL.Take the Presidency of the United States(for purposes of this discussion keep any references pre 1950)George Washington had very little experience in government when elected.Many others in the American revolution had more experience with diplomacy,Local government,etc.
One thing Washington had over the other superior candidates was he was a hero.

I bring up that example to show that a barbarian with little to no magical skill should indeed be eligible to lead the mages guild,as presented in Oblivion,due to the fact that he/she got the job done when all others failed.Using the method I proposed he would gain no real benefit from this.(Maybe some swanky new digs).If the new factions are philosophically different(the Brotherhood of Magicka a group who hordes magical knowledge to protect the ignorant massess from themselves) than the mages guild then by all means have skill checks.Just make it have a reason in game and not some arbitrary numbers that seem right.

Maybe having just a small test to see if you can fight with basic spells/weapons/whatever so you can join the guilds in the first place. Only then from there, using your knowledge from the guild quests or getting to a certain level of magic/fighting weapon skill, would you be able to advance to the next title in the guild. I think the whole purpose of the guild is to find someone who has some basic understanding and then teach that person the skills needed to advance whether through tests or quests. =)

Makes sense. I can't remember off the top of my head but even the thieves guild test in Oblivion didn't actually require any sneak skill did it?

I hope, the quests made for faction, would require you to be skillful in skills that are important for that faction, so if for instance mages guild sends you to perform a task for them, you would have to use your magic abilities to complete the task.

I remember Morrowind's imperial cult quests that required you to heal people, or talk to them and encourage them to donate money for a situation, and the like. Or in Oblivion there was a mage's guild quest that required you to cast a lightning bolt at a target to acquire a new spell, and the like...

Generally Thief's guild and Dark Brotherhood's quests were adequate in this matter, and required some skill in stealth, and lock picking, but it needs to be universal.

But I know that to make a faction seem alive we have to add a lot of background and events to it that could add some side quests that are not really faction related, and should not require us to use faction relate skills to solve, like helping members in their personal problems, or siding with a sect in the faction and opposing the other sects, and the like, but the tasks that are faction related should task you with skills that are faction related.

I'd support a minor skill req to join certain guilds and certainly for advancement.

you people that only played oblivion have no idea how easy it is compared to morrowind, have the challenge in a guild was to get your attributes and skills up, some clay-brained nord could never be arch-mage, they really need to bring the requirements back, they were just logical.

Looks like I've lost this argument.I admit defeat, but remember, incompetent people can sometimes rise to the upper echelons of organisations through a mix of flattery, back-stabbing, blagging, and the diligent filing of mundane, unimaginative reports. No skills other than journeyman in BS required.

there was a mod for oblivion that did just that. you had to go to cast ever more complex spells in front of each of the specialists in the various cities. you got a piece of paper saying that you successfully cast the spell and you turned it into some librarian dude at the arcane university. early promotiions needed you to have x number of journeyman ranks in magic and the higher the rank the more expert and finally a couple of master ranks in magic were needed to reach the highest ranks. it worked out very nicely and i hope that the devs took notice of it and took some of its ideas to implement.

as for joining it wouldnt bother me that you dont have minimum requirements but it is essential that you have requirements to get promoted.

It svcks to have requirements because then you can not join all guilds with 1 character , why do you think all interaction and rivalries were removed in OB? It is pefectly okay to role play a thief in fighters guild or a mague in some other unrelated , generic guild .

:violin:

I think a lot of people would disagree with you . The ability to join all guilds in OB is a sticking point for many, proof that the radiant AI was over-hyped.

Yes sure, but does it make sense to be Arch Mage, head of the Dark Brotherhood and leader of the Thieves Guild all at the same time? Which is essentially what you can do in Oblivion. I don't mean to say you couldn't play a thief in the Fighters Guilt etc but there should be some sort of realism added I think.

Actually that's exactly why having requirements is great. Because then you cannot join all guilds with one character, which is wonderful for a real RPG.

Then you have to actually think about choices and character development. And you get the replay value of multiple characters to explore the whole game.

Hey Emz, still going. You done good on this thread. Made people think about the believability of the game world. The reason I have argued against your OP is imho skill requirements can only be a sticking plaster, what we need is proper inter faction rivalries to define a sensible set of character career arcs.

Requirements in Morrowind never prevent you to be a master mage, fighter and thief thus ensuing you meet the requirements to join basically any faction in the game. It worked wonder to prevent zogzog the orc barbarian with 20 Int, 25 Wis and 5 in all magic related schools to become the head of the mage guild which is desirable.

In Morrowind you didn't need to level every skill favored by a guild. At the lower levels, at least, it was one skill at level x and another skill at level y for promotion. If your magic skill overall is lacking it doesn't make sense for you to advance in a guild focused on magic. You'd be a Jeanne Frasoric with fellow guild members grumbling, "She can't cast her way out of a paper bag." I'd very much like to see skill requirements return--with the sort of flexibility that Morrowind allowed.

I also like the notion of NOT being able to advance in every guild on a single character.

Fair play we both used Jeanne Frasoric as an example for opposing view points. Shows a simple premise like a local guild head being useless can make them memorable. I'm not saying there shouldn't be requirements for guild advancement, just that a check against skill levels seems artificial, a device to prevent unqualified advancement with no reason of itself. Something like Oblivion's Master Conjuration Training is what I would like to see, not oh no your conjuration is only 45, I can't teach you, but summon a faded wraith and then I'll teach you,.