But why should we need bobbleheads for perks? I still think a system like in Skyrim to put Perks and Skills together would be very plausible.

Same. I am really hope that they are together. I really did enjoyed Skyrim's skill and perk system quite a lot. Plus it would make sense cause Skyrim even have main perks. "Science 2" just makes me think about "Conjuration 2" or "Enchanting 2" perks, which again makes sense for Fallout 4 even, if you think about it.

Most skills, not all, in Skyrim has a set of five perks which are basically just named after the skill itself. These five main perks just allows you to be better at the main purpose of said skills. Every single magic skill's five main perks allows you to cast each five level of spells better, with each perk. Same thing here probably. Science 2 perk, for example, is probably gonna be allowing you to hack the 2nd level of terminals as well as other things and that there will probably be five main science perks (and probably same thing with lockpicking).

Unless Beth says that stop being rediculous...

Why should bobbleheads be needed for anything?

You get a magic bonus or a hoccus poccus rank, just like with attributes.

But why should a bobble head be named after a normal perk?

I don't know. Why not?

Frankly, I think it's amazingly odd that decided to go with them at all still.

There's no skills section in the pip-boy menu, and you require different ranks of perks for crafting weapons, perks that before used to increase your skill. For example, Gun Nut, is now a perk that has multiple ranks, which is tied to crafting.

Skills could easily be a submenu under stats.

It's not, as we can see. There's Status, Special and Perks. That's all the submenus there are.

And the http://i.imgur.com/pdb7Wwd.jpg which had it's own button separate from the pipboy.

No skills=No buy until mods fix the dumbing down.

Honestly, I have no real issue at this point right now. I mean, I try to see the Skills themselves as more gameplay, and RP is more about the SPECIAL/attributes than anything else.

I like this in theory, assuming that we have to make choices with the perks. I hated Getting JOATS in Fallout 3/New Vegas and this theoretically does away with that system.

So all of the other pro's you get from a Bethesda game. The massive sandbox doing what you want at a pace you want to do it is not enough to make up for a few lost skills?

Not saying I would be happy if they were gone but throwing out the kitchen sink seems to be cutting off your own nose you know just because

Considering I've been playing Beth games since Arena, no it's not. I'm tired of the 1 step forward two steps back from cutting. Obsidian didn't cut anything when they made NV, so it's obviously possible to add without having to subtract too much, or anything at all.

And this sounds like Nostalgia or Gameplay>Roleplay to me. To me, skills should be directly related the SPECIAL, not to skill points you get simply from leveling up and buy skill mastery with.

In my view, SPECIAL is not that important as long as the Skill system we have in the other fallouts is in place.

No, it sounds like more mechanics and options=more roleplay possibilities and role playing options. Attributes, skills and perks offers more customization and thus more role play diversity than just Attributes and perks. And what does nostalgia have to do with it? I mentioned NV, which was the last Fallout to come out and it didn't cut anything, just added more mechanics and features.

having more mechanics doesn't mean more roleplay when those mechanics dont work or actually do much of anything.

I think indeed it is too early to press the panic button. Skills as perks can work, but it all depends how it's implemented.

Suppose that for every skill you now have a perk with five ranks, so you have Science rank 1-5, Guns rank 1-5 etc. Suppose also that on levelup you can choose two perks. You could choose Guns rank 1, which is the same as investing 20 points in Guns skill in FO3 and for your second perk you can choose a regular perk, such as Bloody Mess. This would then not be too different from FO3, but actually more flexible in some ways:

- like someone already said, you can say that Science rank 5 needs INT of at least 7, for example, which you couldn't do with skills

- you can also say that Speech rank 5 of Guns rank 5 needs level 12 or higher. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to do that but you couldn't really do that with skills but you can with perks

- you can have more ranks for skills that are more important. For example you can only have 3 or 4 ranks for Barter but 5 or more ranks for an important skill like Speech.

- you can select two 'skill' perks on levelup if there are no good regular perks available, or you can select two regular perks and no skill perks if there are good ones this level and you want to choose both.

If the idea of more than one perk per level seems weird, you can simply have one perk per level but level up roughly twice as fast, it's exactly the same thing.

The main problem would be making sure that everything is balanced. I think someone mentioned this in the other thread, if you have a perk that effectively adds 20 skill points, and a perk like Ladykiller, most people will choose a skill perk. This could lead to a situation where for the first 15 or however many levels you would be choosing nothing but 'skill' perks, which wouldn't be good obviously. Also, if you always chose the 'Guns' skill perk from the start, with this system you could have 100 in Guns by level 5. Then again you could do something similar with skills.

In short, I believe this system could work but it depends how well it's implemented.

Yes. Broken mechanics don't work. Working mechanics do. When they do work, more means more.

No, not the end of the world. Just an end to BGS pretending they make RPGs

I don't think it's a bad thing. Skills only made sense in the maths heavy isometric games, they didn't mean dike in Fallout 3 or New Vegas save for determining what level you could hack or some dialouge options.

Combining the, at this point, meagre influence of skills with perks makes a lot more sense to me and I'm sure it will work out fine.

I feel like this alone wouldn't be enough to cause much worry...

But this combined with the general direction of Bethesda RPGs under Todd Howard's influence...

Yeah. I'll wait for the Deluxe Edition with all the DLC. Mods should have fixed it by then.

To me, it is not about the pro's of a Bethesda game, it is about the pro's of a Fallout game.

Are there 'any' pro's of a Fallout game in Fallout 4? Not that I can see.

So I won't buy the game. Or rather, won't buy the game until it is like 10 euro or less.

Cause no way I'm shelling out full price for whatever Bethesda's parading around as "Fallout".

Simple.

To me, each element is important to a proper Fallout experience.

SPECIAL where the average is 5.

Numerous skills that can be increased as you level up.

Skills that go to 100 or past it and for each point to actually 'do' something. (Lockpicking is an example of tons of useless points except for like 25, 50, 75 and 100)

Perks at a 1:2 ratio, preferably 1:3.

Traits that drastically alter your character in good ways and bad.

A SPECIAL system that can make or break a character.

And finally, everything needs to work together in relative synergy.

All of it is equally important to me.

And sometimes they dont work, so you scrap them, take what did work from them, and put them with other things that do work.