That means 1 and 2 players, not so much people who have only played 3 and NV but I'm sure you'll chime in too lol.

In 3 and NV we dealt with the exclusion of some classic skills and the combining of others and for the most part, it worked ok, but how do you feel about the skills being discarded altogether in favor of a modified perk system? I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, I hate that Bethesda has done away with one of the core gameplay and character building systems that was integral to the classic SPECIAL system, but on the other hand I realize it never did really make sense to have to shoot your way through every confrontation to level up then suddenly you're able to smooth talk your way into or out of anything like a silver tongued politician. I think on a scale of 0 to 10 with 0 being absolutely hate, 10 being love love love, and 5 being indifference, I'm probably at a 4 right now. I'm kinda' being an old man about it and not liking the change just because it's a change to a system that worked fine for 5+ games, but I'll keep an open mind and see how it plays come November.

Skills are alive and well, they've just been given a new coat of paint

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1529102-skills-perks-revised-edition

So again, an arguably needless change to the system that worked fine in previous games. Like I said, I'm kinda' hating on it just because it's a change but I'll give it a fair shot and see how it plays. It may play better and be a better experience than ever, but without seeing it in action my current thought is "grumble grumble change crumble grumble if it ain't broke don't fix it grumble grumble."

It's a needless omission. Regardless of how the current perks work. They could've squeezed the dead air out from the skills by lowering their scale to 1-10 and increasing the effects and cost of each rank. Now a full layer of character customization is lost and that's not even accounting for traits. Bad move.

Having studied the perk chart in minute detail over the last couple of weeks, I have managed to identify all 70 perks. And following a ton of further research and cross-referencing, I can now tell you all what each one of the perks does. And they are awesome

I think that once we see it in action, or even once I've posted the full update, you'll realise that this is by far the best, the most intuitive, and the most flexible role-playing system ever designed. And that goes for any character build you can possibly think of. I wish I could just post it up now, but I've got a load of typing and editing to do. Will post it as soon as I'm done

I'd argue that it did need some change. Not saying this way is the optimum route as I don't know enough about it but the old skills system was as basic as it can get and was getting kinda stale. The perks are what make the progression system nice in fallout and frankly if they can serve the same purpose I am fine with that. Skills were just a number on a page and now they are a ranked progression instead of a percentage number on a chart.

I wish I could share your enthusiasm, but that's where you lost me.

In another thread someone else said Fallout 4 will be greatest game ever. How awesome is it that come november we're actually getting the best game ever?

Well, it doesn't have to be your favorite game, or even your favorite leveling system. But what do you think of it on its own, completely disregarding what the older games did? And how do you think it compares to other action RPGs? (regardless of how you feel about Fallout being an ARPG now, which is a different opinion)

3 here but I can agree with this, it doesn′t make much sense and could use another system. If you shoot a lot you should get better at it, and if you talk a lot you should get better at that. Problem is that requires tons and tons of more dialogue and suddenly the game will get delayed, the price will go through the roof and we will get 20 DVDs instead of one (provided you buy at a brick and mortar, of course).

My enthusiasm comes from the time I've spent unravelling elements of the story, the game mechanics, and other details. This is not blind optimism, but the opinion of someone with a 30 year gaming history who understands what it takes to put games like this together. The only reason I only understand it so much is because I was insane enough to put in the hours to figure it all out. And it quite literally puts anything else out there to shame.

As someone who been with the franchise since the old days, Im quite happy, its clear the old skill system did not work when the franchise left the turned based combat behind, both beth and Obsidian failed to balance the skill points and it was to easy to max more thrn one skill.

The new system of having to juggle between picking a skill perk, a perk perk or increase your special will give character the depth from having strengths and weaknesses.

A great improvement

My personal take is that i find it a shame they dunked the whole skills thing, but like you OP i know that while nostalgia for me is fun and all, the system was showing its age. I will reserve judgement for when i finaly get to play the game, but for me the whole perk system gameplay is becoming rather overdone already, with many games going into a similar way. It is also something i would sooner see in a MMO then a Single Player RPG but that too is my personal preferance.

I'm reserving final judgement on how the game plays. It could lead to a little better rpg just in that perhaps you can't be a jack of all trades, and thus an improvement over FO3 and NV, but compared to 1 and 2, they could have the same effect keeping the skills and increasing skill level cap or done something else to prevent the jack of all trades character. But, I guess we will see how it turns out, and really I think it is sad that Traits are not around when NV implemented them fairly successfully.

Never played the Originals, but I've been playing RPGs since AD&D 1 and Dragon Warrior 1 and I find this system at least a 9 (right now). And like gkk7z, I've been trying to figure out the Perks, mostly to understand how to build a character. I find it to be closer to most of the Table-Tops I play, therefore I am happy.

Of course not, but the dude said that "once I've read his thing, I'll realise [the part I quoted]".

From the outset, it doesn't look anything special (pun intended). Perk tree systems have existed in other action "RPG's" and action adventures for a good while, and based on my experience with those and Beth's recent endeavors in systems design, I don't see why this would be anything spectacularly different or by and large offer anything to compensate for what was lost.

You seem pretty sure of yourself. Hats off for all the effort and all that, but gotta understand if it leaves me a bit sceptical, if I don't just start jumping up and down when some internet nobody among other internet nobodies (yours truly included) says he has apparently overanolyzed the early bits of largely unspecific information and then "has it all figured out", and says it's going to be the best thing ever. I mean, it's not like I haven't seen this before. I hope, though, that your hunch is at least half right when it comes to how good a system it will actually be.

I just need to know if we got our Kama Sutra Master perk back. Cause you know ... reasons.

And yes gkk7z is very sure of himself. Annoyingly so ... in that you are wrong and he is right.

My biggest issue is the picking of Perks (and thus skills) in any order you want if your attribute is high enough. Also giving perks levels, just seems like they are creating ways for you to spend perk points.

Don't forget that I'm not the one who designed the system, I just interpreted it. And I'm as certain as anyone who has discovered compelling evidence to back up their argument.

You'll understand what I mean when I post the full update. Every single perk makes sense exactly where it is, the descriptions match the icons, and each perk tree is perfectly balanced. There are even a number of hidden references tying different perks together. There's no way I could have actually designed all of that myself, that credit goes to the clever folks at BGS

each to there own I find the new system makes it easier to make characters whos sheet reflects your character concept. For example in the old system if I rp a guy who destinctly uses handguns over other firearms, I had to wait until level 6 before this was reflected in my sheet, with the new system I can start applying this destinction from level 2.

As always, it depends on the implementation. If perk points are treated like skill points were in Fallout 3 (i.e., tossed to the player like beads from a Mardi Gras parade) then we're going to end up with characters similar to those in Fallout 3; completely maxed out in all skills and attributes by the later part of the mid game unless the player makes a conscious effort to nerf the character in one or more areas. All that will be different is that you'll need fewer mouse clicks to get through the level-up screens.

On the surface, the new system, at least as far as I can tell so far, looks less like what we've become accustomed to in Fallout and more like what you get in Borderlands/Borderlands 2, the only difference being the lack of rigidly defined classes (each with its own set of perks/skills distributed among three distinct paths for each class), and more character appearance customization options. Now, I love playing Borderlands - it's great shooter/action game. But it's not Fallout, and it shouldn't try to be Fallout; and Fallout shouldn't try to be Borderlands. If Fallout 4 is going to end up being Borderlands with a few more added features (settlement building, loot storage, more items that can be interacted with, etc.), I'm not sure how well that's going to work. It could end up being a compromise that ends up satisfying no one.

Like you, however, I'm reserving final judgment for after release.

I thought it to be unfortunate at first, but I can't help but to be curiously interested in this new system. However, I try to remain skeptical about it Just wait and see how I really feel when I finally experience it for myself and I get my hands on the game. However:

This is rather saddening to see traits not come back. It added another element to your character that defines them and it seems it won't return in another Fallout if Bethesda continues to just ignore it.

I salute you for aknowkedging your curmudgeonly viewpoint.

And I can make the same reference to some Skyrim tree perks where I would have to master things I didn't want to get what I wanted.

For example, if I'm playing an Archer I want the Deadly Aim perk, but I can't get that without learning the Backstab perk ... something that my character may never do. But the counter example is armor, where it makes sense that someone learns working with basic metals before going right to working with Orichalcum. So how do you balance these two at all if you can just pick whatever perk you want if your attribute is high enough?

if it's anything like shadowrun returns i dont mind it. you get karma to spend on attributes (intelligence, quickness, etc), skills (ranged combat, decking, etc) and sub skills (pistols, esp control, etc) that can all be raised to a base max of 10 (i think, but the max is modified with race). sub skills couldn't be raised past the major skills and the major skill couldn't be raised past the attribute. it sounds like the same system to me, just replace attributes with special, skills stay as skills (or the perks that handle skills) and sub skills with actual perks (like commando or the mysterious stranger). tbh it sounds like the old system as well when thought out, just with different max levels for skills.

of course i have not actively searched for information on FO4 (i wanna be blind as can be when i start) so i could be way off on every single thing

You do this by including the right balance of perks that also function completely well on their own. Which is exactly what the devs have done. This way, you can mix and match to the point where every combination is valid, and has it's own unique merits. The comparison you mention still exists, because all except 4 of the perks have 4 ranks each. And so you have to take the first rank before you can take the second, and so on.