Heavy armor will penalize your stealth skill and your sword will not be very good for sneak attacks, because it's very unwieldy in tight spaces, unlike a dagger. If you're a master at sneaking then you don't need that damn shield in the first place because nobody will know you were there. They're different skill sets. There's a reason the classical thief archetype is lightly-armored or unarmored: metal plate armor is freaking LOUD.

Yeah, but it worked for me in Oblivion. bliviongate:

yeah but if the heavy armor is better you should be able to sneak with it to and you should use a sword for a sneak attack cuz it's stronger.

But that's not an argument for any type of armor being included under the "stealth" archetype. Armor is meant to protect you from damage while in combat. A pure stealth character would use their mastery to avoid combat altogether. If you are hit by an enemy's weapon, that means you have failed at moving around undetected and are not being very "stealthy."

I always played my stealth characters using light armor... I'm sure there'll be a perk that makes your footsteps very quiet even if you are wearing armor.

Thanks for the info you quoted in your other post.

Daggers are supposed to be pretty special in this game. Do they have their own skill? If not, where do their perks go?

Probably in stealth. So stealth will have perks for better sneaking, daggers, and maybe pickpocketing?

I know. But what if someone catches me while sneaking around a house? I will need that heavy armor. Or if I'm walking around on some road and a bandit comes to me? I'm not going to sneak past him or do a back stab. I'm not going to be sneaking the whole game. Plus, heavy armor looks better.

Daggers are one-handed weapons. They go there.

I thought about that, but then if you want dagger-specific perks then one-handed weapons will have perks for at least four things: axes, maces, swords, and daggers. Seems like too much, no?

The ones we are not entirely sure about:

-Light/Heavy Armor
-Security (Merged with Sneak?)
-Speechcraft/Bartering
-Fists (Merged with 1h? Removed?)


One of these has to be either removed or merged for it to be 18. Not sure which yet. I'm hoping Speech + Bartering are merged so we get Fists :tops:

I'm also hoping Security is made more usefull (like makes you better at puzzle and traps).





I thought I somewhere heard there are dagger perks in the Sneak tree, not sure though.

Not really. You don't have to have perks in every one of them. Just go one or two paths.

Yeah, but the definition of "stealth" is "the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly." If you are getting the benefit of using armor (i.e. being attacked and receiving less damage because of what you're wearing), then you clearly aren't being "stealthy." There's nothing stealthy about combat, other than quiet assassinations.


Yes but the whole point of this is about where the skills should go. When you are detected and attacked by an enemy, you have transitioned from "stealth" to "combat." You're not going to get any benefit of wearing armor over clothing while you're moving around stealthily.


I'm 99% positive they said dagger stealth assassination perks go under the "stealth" skill. I think they meant to say "sneak" skill. My guess is that dagger combat damage will be handled by the 1H skill, but all the dagger perks will be under sneak and related to stealth attacks, not open combat.

Edit: Ah, yes, here's the quote from http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/01/24/skyrim-building-better-combat.aspx?PostPageIndex=3:

Daggers are an interesting case. I think we've heard that perks will be under the Sneak skill (or whatever the descendant of that skill is). But now there seems to be something odd. Presumably, it is just the value of the skill which governs the weapon which affects how much damage you do with it. So, is it going to be the case that the value of your Sneak skill governs the damage you do with a dagger? Or, is it going to be the case that the value of your One-Handed Weapon skill governs the damage you do with a dagger?

Both of these are a little odd. The first more for role-playing/immersion reasons, the second for mechanical reasons. It would be bad to distribute your character's ability to use a dagger across two skills (perks in one skill, damage dealing in another skill). Maybe just go for the first option, but rename the skill into something a little more general, so that it includes both stealthy movement and stealthy kills.

My guess: 1H will determine the damage you do with daggers in open combat, while Sneak will have perks that give you bonuses for stealth attacks with daggers. Yes, it's distributed across two skills, but for completely different attack styles.

All this talk just gets me more excited about Skyrim. :mellow:

That sounds like the most reasonable option, and it fits well with the concept of the high-DPS rogue. Same as with Marksman, being a rogue is a distinct playstyle, and therefore it should have its own skill.

If you're wearing heavy armor then, yeah, I guess you'll be caught sneaking around pretty damn frequently, because heavy armor is not at all suited for stealth in any way. It makes you slower, bulkier, and heavier, and since most of it in TES will be metal it is also exceedingly noisy to move around in. The whole point of sneaking is not to be seen at all. If you're caught while you're sneaking your number one priority should be to get away, a goal that heavy armor hinders more than it helps. It's like saying "I want to be a mage who svcks at spellcasting but he's really good at hitting [censored] with an axe!" The archetype's not an artificial construction. It's a logical grouping of similar skills.

Maybe some reasons they did this:

1. To keep the 1H Perk tree from being far too bloated and the go-to tree for everyone.

2. To slightly enforce daggers as the essential "Stealth" weapon. If you wanna kick butt with these you cant' gimp your stealth.

This also makes improving stealth a lot easier. No more holding the stealth key down and walking into a wall behind some guy in Balmora.
Heh, got a little nostalgic there. :happy:

:shrug:

Stealth up, get off one backstab, and then the combat turns into a straight fight, especially if the guy has friends around.



(Of course, I tended to play stealth hybrids - enough stealth to creep around in dungeons, see what's up ahead without alerting them, and get off one or two bow shots, then stand up and sword & board it. Very rarely have I had enough Sneak skill to reach backstab range. )

What? How can you get better at being lucky?!?

Exactly that's what I'm saying - armor should be placed under combat because the stealth characters that use it are usually stealth hybrids, not pure stealth. Make one, non redundant Armor skill under combat with perks for specializing in light/heavy, and this leaves room for an extra skill in stealth. Maybe if they revamp the stealing and barter system mercantile could actually be a worthwhile skill that doesn't have to be combined with speechcraft. But a pure stealth character ideally shouldn't need armor, so it doesn't make sense to have Light Armor under stealth, especially when they clearly have a goal of removing unnecessary redundancy.

Karma?

My guess: Combat - 1. 1H
2. 2H
3. Archery
4. Shield
5. Smithing
6. Heavy Armor

Magic - 1. Alteration
2. Restoration
3. Destruction ( These are confirmed to be the 6 Magic skills.)
4. Illusion
5. Conjuration
6. Enchanting

Stealth 1. Alchemy
2. Speechcraft
3. Security
4. Sneak
5. Barter
6. Light Armor
This leaves out Unarmed. HA and LA could've been merged. Maybe Speechcraft and Barter have been merged? I dunno. I hope the 18 skills get confirmed at E3.

What about when you're working your way there? Nobody starts out as a master.