Skyrim=Action Game, not RPG : V - Skyrim

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:00 pm

I'm happy that so many folks enjoy this series regardless.....let me ask you this:

Can you climb walls
Can you look into windows
can you roll a lucky character
can you carry 300 lbs if you are a big warrior or a tiny mange
are there puzzles that make you think
do you employ strategy to defeat your enemies or just hack and slash
do you travel to a place or instant travel for instant action?
would you have finishing moves or....nevermind, this one is too obvious

listen...again....not arguing this....just call it for what it is. If you think it's an RPG, you are either too young to remember or......

I feel like you joined these forums at the age of 3 and continue to have the mind of a 3 year old having a tantrum over not having people think the way you think. Its an Action Game in your mind and an RPG is others. Get over it.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:11 pm

By "action" it means running around with a joystick and pressing buttons to swing sword / jump / duck / block. You know, like an action game.

Versus non-action RPGs, where you do things like select commands from a menu for the turn-based combat, all of which is decided by numbers.

Agreed. I don't think there's been a quality turn based RPG since KotOR, if there even was one of any quality. It's not becoming an action game until you have a character that does all your talking for you with no input (like GTA 4) or one where you might have some input in dialog but can't upgrade your character in any way - you can only change clothes and cars (like LA NOIRE).

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:48 pm

I believe the OP doesn't know the defintion of what an RPG is because Skyrim is clearly an RPG.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:55 pm

No seriously what is an rpg @Pisa50? apparently games that involve an openworld, endless choice, character customization, different paths aren't, so what is an rpg then. Skyrim isnt an action RPG either, its a rpg its not mass effect, and just because they took some features out doesnt mean its not an RPG. As far as the whole lore and depth argument the whole series is built around lore, its the basis on which the world is created. So before you start making arguments, perhaps you should rethink your theories and actually research.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:05 pm

There were no puzzles in Arena and Daggerfall and Daggerfall barely had any character customization, at all. Arena had no factions, no customizable classes, no houses, no horses, and not even a single book. The game was a hack-and-slash dungeon crawl. The action elements couldn't have been more visible. Daggerfall had more customization, but was still a largely action-based experienced. It also had less lore than both Morrowind and Oblivion, as did Arena. Exploration is practically non-existant in Daggerfall and Arena's was ENTIRELY randomly-generated.

Morrowind lost Daggerfall's class creation system in favor of those pathetic birthsigns and changed the series completely. Exploration was practically non-existant in the first two Elder Scrolls games, and the game still had death by combat as a huge part of its world.

Oblivion had just as much killing as previous games. All it did to the combat was improve it, not make it more action-based. The quest markers and the "difficulty" you propose they eliminated (wandering across a barren ashland is not a challenge) have nothing to do with being an RPG and the problem with level-scaling was not that it kept the player caught up with the gameworld, but that it made the gameworld outrun the player. On the topic of difficulty in combat, my Morrowind character is a demi-god by level 15 and I still struggle with certain enemies in Oblivion at level 40 because of the level-scaling. If anything, level-scaling made Oblivion more difficult as far as combat went and that was its problem... that it made the game more difficult as the player character progressed. In any case, this "difficulty" has nothing to do with being an RPG or not. I've played brutal RPGs and I've played easy ones. I've played brutal action games and I've played easy ones. There is no correlation between "difficulty" and RPG elements, period. Also note that Oblivion was the first core Elder Scrolls game with any puzzles.

They lost a whooping three redundant skills and some stats in favor of perks that are limited to a certain number and make Skyrim THE MOST SPECIALIZATION-INDUCING GAME OF THE SERIES, apart from possibly Arena (due to its rigid class restrictions). We'll still have lore, can now do things such as blacksmithing and messing with economies, and merely have better action elements. Action IS and always has been a primary action of the series. The series has always been a dungeon-crawling, hack-and-slash series. These improved action elements are just that... improved action elements. The action is just as frequent as it always was, but now it's actually going to be fun. If you think an RPG is about intentionally holding back the combat elements that are already there and plentiful, but boring, than you just must not know good game design. :shrug: Also note that Skyrim will have plenty more puzzles than Oblivion and, therefore, will have plenty more puzzles than previous Bethesda games, as well.

Excellent post :thumbsup:

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:29 pm

Also for people who say that because its real time its an action RPG, your kind of wrong. Those that aren't are called turnbased RPG's they have a name and there a subgenre, theres strategy RPGs, Action rpgs, RPS's... Theres alot. Skyrim falls under the FPS RPG.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:16 pm

do you employ strategy to defeat your enemies or just hack and slash

To be fair, hack and slash kind of is combat. Of course there is a lot of technique, but for a warrior, that either becomes second nature, therefore turning back into hack and slash, or technique gets driven from there mind in the heat of battle. And how do you suppose we use technique with a controller or keyboard? Push these 17 buttons in this order to do epic move? Mortal Kombat?

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:37 pm

Also for people who say that because its real time its an action RPG, your kind of wrong. Those that aren't are called turnbased RPG's they have a name and there a subgenre, theres strategy RPGs, Action rpgs, RPS's... Theres alot. Skyrim falls under the FPS RPG.

I disagree, Skyrim would be classified under Action RPG.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:01 pm

Im Disappointed that beth. is streamlining ES, but its still an RPG. May you suffer the wrath of Mehrunes Dagon

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:27 pm

The game has more RPG elements than Oblivion. gg

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:03 pm

The game has more RPG elements than Oblivion. gg

It's about equal, We lost Attributes but got Perks as a replacement.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:15 pm

The whole arguing over what games are RPG's or not all has to do with your definition of what an RPG is. To me an RPG is any game that's it focus is on building your character more than any other element in the game, and as such Skyrim is as much an RPG as any other TES game before it.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:40 pm

It's about equal, We lost Attributes but got Perks as a replacement.

But theres more opportunities to roleplay, since you can mess with the economy of towns and do jobs. If you want, you could just roleplay a regular person and it would actually be fun. In other games, you could, but you would just be standing around all day.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:01 am

First off, a disclaimer....I'm not bashing or putting anything down, just calling things like I see it and would like opinions on it. Please be respectful.

I've played TES games since Arena. The series has obviously taken a turn since then. There are many things that Beth has improved on and numerous things that they have changed in order to evolve this series from an RPG to an action game. With the changes to Skyrim being what they are, it's hard to disguise that this series has now evolved from an RPG series to an action series. I'm not putting Beth down, they are doing what they need to in order to make money. What I get frustrated with are folks trying to fit Skyrim into an RPG box. It's not an RPG. Beth is evolving, along with their customer base, and marketing their game to folks that can button push to accomplish their goals. The lore, the depth of play is officially over. It was going that direction after Oblivion and after seeing the changes for Skyrim, I think the transformation will be complete. Again, not saying anyone is wrong here, I just think people should call it for what it is. Skyrim is an action game, not an RPG. Accept that fact and a lot of the short comings, will be easier to swallow.

I read this post when it first went up, and just left. I figured it would've been locked by now, just because, even with your disclaimer, it was certain that you were going to get flamed relentlessly.

But since it's still up and I've been pondering, I'm going to respond, though I haven't and have no intention of reading any of the rest of the thread. I can already well imagine what's there.

I think you're a bit heavy-handed in your anolysis, which is most of why it's certain it turned into a flamefest. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Skyrim is an action game and is not an RPG. However, the underlying point is unmistakably correct - with each new installment in the series (at least since Daggerfall) the overall course of the games has been the same - they've removed RPG elements and added action elements. That's not to say that that's what's been done exclusively - even with Oblivion, they added some RPG elements (at least I'm assuming so - I can't think of any examples right off). But overall, the tendency has been consistent - more RPG elements are removed and more action elements are added.

But it is still, to at least some degree, an RPG. And as long as even one RPG element remains, people will continue to assert that it is one. And maybe, at least in some sense, they'll be right to do so. But that doesn't alter the underlying fact that the progression has consistently been toward action and away from RPG, and that certainly appears to be the case with Skyrim as well.

I see a turning point coming in games myself. Somewhere along the way here, probably in the not terribly distant future, some indie company is going to put out a game that will do to the RPG genre what Daggerfall did back in its time. I'm just keeping my eye out for that game.....

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:05 pm

But theres more opportunities to roleplay, since you can mess with the economy of towns and do jobs. If you want, you could just roleplay a regular person and it would actually be fun. In other games, you could, but you would just be standing around all day.

In Morrowind you'd just stand around all day, maybe pace back and forth. In Oblivion you'd have the freedom to walk between the local inn and your home, maybe even sit down and eat a poisoned apple.

Ah, the thrilling life of a Radiant AI NPC.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:59 pm

I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is invalid....you are all entitled to be wrong. But go back and play some RPG's. Tell me of character depth and character development. Tell me of being a homer and being objective. I'm not trying to start a battle here, but how any of you could say that Skyrim stays on par with previous TES games from an RPG perspective is beyond me. We are now more concerned with finishing moves than attributes and stats....any yet, you continue to fight the good fight and say that we are just as much an RPG as we ever has been. Here in lies the problem, different folks have different perspectives. Perhaps it's an RPG for you....perhaps Biochock is also.

Take Wizardry and Bioshock...which way is the game trending? Action or RPG? I'm not attacking anyone here, just put on your thinking cap. If you are too young, educate yourself on what RPG's use to be.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:42 am

But theres more opportunities to roleplay, since you can mess with the economy of towns and do jobs. If you want, you could just roleplay a regular person and it would actually be fun. In other games, you could, but you would just be standing around all day.

That is true, we do have opportunites to get jobs but I would say that Roleplaying is about equal between both Oblivion and Skyrim. The only thing that's set in Skyrim is you are Dragonborn but that can still be roleplayed in many different ways.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:42 pm

It's about equal, We lost Attributes but got Perks as a replacement.

more unique races, body customization, carriage system, town economy, radiant story, more weapons/armor, more puzzles, better sense of culture

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:44 pm

It's not really important to me that Skyrim be classified as an RPG or whatever. What's important is that the combat and gameplay mechanics that Bethesda decided to go with, work and make sense. What is there needs to feel like it makes sense within the already established Elder Scrolls world. So far I feel like that is the case. I'm not concerned with getting caught up with stats and skill points but with having a gameplay experience that challenges me and is fun to play with. If Bethesda wants to change it up, I am fine with that and trust that they know what they are doing.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:12 am

The game has more RPG elements than Oblivion. gg

Right, you've reached level 10, so your opinion has merit.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:01 pm

That is true, we do have opportunites to get jobs but I would say that Roleplaying is about equal between both Oblivion and Skyrim. The only thing that's set in Skyrim is you are Dragonborn but that can still be roleplayed in many different ways.

Yep. Especially since, don't quote me on this, but I think Mankar Camoran was Dragonborn. You have a character like him, and then someone like Tiber Septim. Thats a pretty broad spectrum.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:21 pm

I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is invalid....you are all entitled to be wrong. But go back and play some RPG's. Tell me of character depth and character development. Tell me of being a homer and being objective. I'm not trying to start a battle here, but how any of you could say that Skyrim stays on par with previous TES games from an RPG perspective is beyond me. We are now more concerned with finishing moves than attributes and stats....any yet, you continue to fight the good fight and say that we are just as much an RPG as we ever has been. Here in lies the problem, different folks have different perspectives. Perhaps it's an RPG for you....perhaps Biochock is also.

Take Wizardry and Bioshock...which way is the game trending? Action or RPG? I'm not attacking anyone here, just put on your thinking cap. If you are too young, educate yourself on what RPG's use to be.

Yeah what it "used to be." You have to remember things evolve.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:33 am

From what we know about Skyrim, I would have to say that it is more of an Action Adventure / Role Playing Game than a Traditional RPG.

Is it more of an Action Adventure than Daggerfall was? I would have to say definitely yes.

Is it more of an Action Adventure than Morrowind was? I would have to say definitely yes.

Is it more of an Action Adventure than Oblivion was? I would have to say probably yes. Mostly due to the fact that this will be the first TES game that doesn't really allow you to create a unique character at the very beginning of the game. For me, it is hard to call Skyrim a RPG, when I cannot make a Mage character build that is anything different than a Warrior character build. My choices are Race and Gender . . . and even both of those are more cosmetic than anything else. If I always start the game as a Female Bosmer (like I always did, in both Morrowind and Oblivion), I'm ALWAYS going to start out the game exactly the same. There's totally no difference from starting out as a Mage, starting out as a Warrior, or starting out as a thief . . . they all are the EXACT same character now. It's Beth's one-size-fits-all initial character build "improvement." That weakens the RPG aspects of the game in my opinion.

A Role Playing Game should allow you to give your character a history (beyond just Race and Gender) . . . some type of background . . . that includes inherent strengths and weaknesses. Even Mass Effect does that.

The other thing is the the MAIN focus in Skyrim is killing dragons . . . and it is done in a way that appears to be most effective (due to dual wield) when you can use both a weapon AND a spell . . . so most player characters are going to end up as Mage/Warriors. And even if you decide to be a "pure" Warrior, if you use Dragon Shouts, you're no longer going to be a "pure" Warrior.

Personally, I'm getting to the place where I feel that Skyrim is not going to be enough of a RPG for me. I'll still likely purchase it . . . and then mod the heck out of it, until I can restore some of the RPG aspects that were watered down (in order to make the game more mainstreamed).

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:29 pm

I've yet to see the OP even come close to making a clear point about why he thinks Skyrim is any more of an action game than previous TES titles. He just continually brings up Bethesda [censored] out to get more money, grumbles about flying dragons, and moans about loss of clearly visible stats.

Heck, here's my take on what he seems to be trying to say:

Based on gameplay footage that we've seen from the recent E3, Skyrim's combat has taken center place of my (OP)'s focus. It looks faster, more gimicky, and more greatly resembles the combat of a number of action games than previous TES titles. You can even perform fancy, graphical finishing moves more akin to Mortal Kombat than anything in TES! Having seen this footage, and combining it with the news that attributes are apparently out, the general feel of the new menu system (it looks like my ipod, for goodness sake! RPG, and TES, tradition is to have UIs that wouldn't seem too out of place in an old book), and other perceived changes (less armor slots, inclusion of cliche'd dragons, etc...), I am lead to conclude that Skyrim is far more of an Action game than previous TES titles. I believe that Bethesda's reason for all of these gimicky, streamlined changes are their attempt to make more money by becoming more "mainstream," a term I associate with dumbing down, selling out, and selling short.

I hope that this summarize's the OP's intended feelings.

As for my personal take on this:

All of the prior TES titles resonated around their core combat/action elements. Virtually every stat, skill, and attribute was designed to contribute directly to combat. Actual gameplay itself was mostly going from A to B and fighting someone at B for McGuffin C. That Bethesda included an incredible wealth of detail on their created word of Tamriel, and offered players incredible customization over their characters, is nothing but one incredibly massive plus to me. That Skyrim is increasing the uniqueness of each character through perks, as well as making the core combat much more interesting and intense, if one of if not my most anticipated part of TESV.

» Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:43 am

I read this post when it first went up, and just left. I figured it would've been locked by now, just because, even with your disclaimer, it was certain that you were going to get flamed relentlessly.

But since it's still up and I've been pondering, I'm going to respond, though I haven't and have no intention of reading any of the rest of the thread. I can already well imagine what's there.

I think you're a bit heavy-handed in your anolysis, which is most of why it's certain it turned into a flamefest. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Skyrim is an action game and is not an RPG. However, the underlying point is unmistakably correct - with each new installment in the series (at least since Daggerfall) the overall course of the games has been the same - they've removed RPG elements and added action elements. That's not to say that that's what's been done exclusively - even with Oblivion, they added some RPG elements (at least I'm assuming so - I can't think of any examples right off). But overall, the tendency has been consistent - more RPG elements are removed and more action elements are added.

But it is still, to at least some degree, an RPG. And as long as even one RPG element remains, people will continue to assert that it is one. And maybe, at least in some sense, they'll be right to do so. But that doesn't alter the underlying fact that the progression has consistently been toward action and away from RPG, and that certainly appears to be the case with Skyrim as well.

I see a turning point coming in games myself. Somewhere along the way here, probably in the not terribly distant future, some indie company is going to put out a game that will do to the RPG genre what Daggerfall did back in its time. I'm just keeping my eye out for that game.....

Thank you. I wasn't trying to make folks upset or start a riot, just observing that the game is changing. It's becoming far less like the traditional RPG and much closer to the current action game. Nothing wrong with that. It's what makes money.