I was one of the people who recognized Dragon Shouts as Thu'um when they were first announced, but I was concerned that Bethesda was going to gloss over such a connection and not give credible evidence. I was very pleasantly surprised to hear them called Thu'um quite often.

Its the little touches we've seen from past lore that help sell this game's new lore in my eyes. The 7,000 steps (have not counted them yet, but they are referred to as such very often). Dragons having lived into modern times (Naafiliargus would be a prime example of that). The Companions being descended from the 500 Companions.

Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's probably some things they've crapped on somewhere, and I'm going to avoid this thread until after I beat the MQ again, but I just wanted to compliment Beth on not just overwriting their own lore to the extent they did in Oblivion.

I was fighting some Dunmer, and he yelled "Nerevar, guide me!" I was like hey, I know that guy. :wink_smile:

Gameplay in Oblivion didn't overwrite lore so much as it just *ignored* it. Not to bash it too much; it was a great game and did a lot of things right, but in many senses it felt generic and didn't show off the inspired lore behind the world very well.

Skyrim's definitely avoided that pitfall, I think.

It was interesting to find out that Alduin is a false god, and not a part of Akatosh.

Yes, I'm definitely glad that Skyrim is representing much more of the lore this time around. I think with Oblivion that they were just attempting to focus on the game play seeing as they had a new engine to deal with, and while they did include lore they did so more through books than through direct dialog.

I think with Morrowind the lore was much easier to see because characters were saying a lot more since it wasn't spoken. I find it amazing to be able to sit back and listen to an NPC tell me things that are full of lore instead of just slightly referencing things and being obscure about it. I'm glad that Skyrim has really given me that nudge to delve into the lore while Oblivion felt a lot more......gamy I suppose.

I guess that's why playing Skyrim made me want to play Morrowind again, for the lore and story.

As any PC gamer can tell you right now, this is not a new engine. It has new tech in it, an evolution perhaps, but it is not a new engine.

I was referring to Oblivion. The Skyrim engine is an improved version of their last one, so I'd imagine they rebuilt a lot of it from the ground up. So technically, ya, its pretty much a new engine.

I hate what they did to Alduin, from what I've heard. Need to actually play the MQ. Also, I'm very miffed with the neglect of Shor, Kyne (not [censored] Kynnareth), and Ysmir (I don't want to hear 'Talos' I want to [censored] hear Ysmir!)

I also love all the little references to the past. Like one of the apprentices at the College of Winterhold is a member of House Telvanni, and also the Sarethi alchemist lady from Morrowind has a farm in Skyrim now. And finding Sinderion the alchemist's remains in Blackreach, and reading his alchemy book which included a little reference to Ash Salts, the alchemy ingredient from Morrowind, and the Blight and stuff. I love the little touches like that.

Nord NPCs refer to Shor, Kyne, and Ysmir very frequently, but Imperial religious influence is strong. Also Alduin World-Eater apparently mantled the Dragon God to devour the past kalpa and shed his divinity during the new Dawn, becoming just another dragon once more, albeit a powerful one. Remember also that all lore is in-universe, and Varieties of Faith was also the sole mention of Alduin and was also brief and quite vague.

I'm willing to let Alduin go because it sounds like a pretty good story, as well as one that enshrines mantling and kalpas in the lore quite strongly.

Varieties of Faith was vague, it's true, but it was also the keystone document of Aedric lore that is very important to the series and has implications beyond Alduin. I don't like that Skyrim has shied away from the multiple versions of Aedric deities created by mortal belief and expectation. They have explained away Alduin, but Auriel vs. Akatosh vs. Satakal remains, as does Shor vs. Shezarr vs Lorkhan. And all the other local Divines variants whose personalities are less clear.

You say Alduin shed his divinity at the end of the last kalpa. In that case, I can see why they did it, so we wouldn't have to fight a true god. But in that case, I don't know how he was supposed to devour the universe, because no amount of napalm is going to reset the march of time. I don't want to hear more little cretins on the general forum parroting "It's metaphorical" any more.

Just because you're a dragon now doesn't mean you can't have been and be destined to become something more. It's like . That's not to say that this absolutely is the correct view, but I think it makes sense.

This is exactly how I feel, but I also haven't played the MQ and so can't comment yet with any validity.

Beyond what you mentioned, I'm absolutely loving it, and am very impressed. It exceeds my expectations massively, and while I didn't expect a lot I still thought it was going to be great. Instead, it's magnificent.

I think in the case of Talos that Bethesda was kind of in a bind with that one. There are players who have not delved into the lore and would not have recognized it if they had said that Ysmir was the god they could not worship. Talos has been represented throughout the other games so that name was a bit more recognizable. I think they could have at least made reference to Ysmir as Talos though. Maybe had an angry Scholar named Hellmouth venting his frustration with the fact that no one calls Talos Ysmir. Just an idea ^^

He could be named something like "Snorri Oblivion-Tongue" =P

The Thalmor wants neither to win, that we know.

Instead, they'd prefer a long, bloody war. Not a swift one.

GRAH! I DON'T CARE! Holy damn, if this is what they did to the nords of Skyrim, I shudder to think what the altmer of Summerset are going to be like.
Also, they could just have some NPC explain it to fill in those who don't know. Heck, I started in Oblivion, so I didn't know the gods much to begin with, till I got interested in lore. Not like they're going to confuse more people anyway.


I'd take it as a badge of honor.

And like I said, I'm going to burn every nine temple in Skyrim, slay every priest, wipe their blood all over the walls with the names of the real nordic gods, and defile all the alters.

The traditional, Nordic aspects of the gods were ignored, however. Even the traditionalists are Imperialists. This is something I have not been able to ignore.

Varieties of Faith and the Five Songs are absent. At least, I haven't found them.

Ignored? More like erased. Save for the Greybeards (from what I've heard), the most 'traditional' nord is still a [censored] Imperial.

I CURSE THE NINE! THE BLOOD GOD SHALL HAVE THEIR SKULLS AND BLOOD!

That sounds like a very effective way to get these things done.

In the end I don't know what exactly the reasoning is for it. Maybe purely their own decision with the game, maybe even limitations with getting this type of thing voiced to give to an NPC not everyone will talk to or listen to. Idk though while it is a pain its the truth. You go burn all them temples in the name of Ysmir.

Damn the Nine Iniquities! A mountain-fart on their priests!

The lack of Nords actively worshiping the Nordic Pantheon is my biggest problem with Skyrim. Skyrim has great political world building, but the religious aspect of the Nords... not so much. Even [censored] Bruma likes Ysmir. You know what? [censored] Skyrim (the land, not the game). Solsthiem and Bruma have actual Nords. That statue of Talos in Windhelm should be a dragon (with a beard).

I'm surprised the Talos worshipers hate non-Nords, but the Ysmir/Kyne/Shor lovers embraced the Dunmer. See what the Imperials do to you?

I'm surprised the Five Songs aren't in, because the Herasy is. Ysmir Kingmaker is apparently the author.

The religious aspects may as well be Oblivion. Just replace "Akatosh" with "Talos" and you practically have the same mythological adherence both games had.

I do love the oracle's rant, the one in Whiterun. It's like someone who dips their toes in the pool, but they wouldn't jump in, because the water was too cold.

I like him, only because he's quoting "The Many Headed Talos."