What captured me in Morrowind was the atmosphere. Plain and simple. It was alien. Skyrim, not so much. Neither was Cyrodiil in Oblivion.

This is not a thread about going against lore, but only about game design.

In (m)any given Nintendo games, you are not stuck with a single environment. Zelda, Mario, Megaman, Diddy Kong's Racing, Banjo-Kazooie, etc... there is complete variety in environments.

Water worlds
Ice worlds
Fire worlds
Deserts
Forests
Jungles
Cities
Mountains
Plains
Outer Space

You name it, you got it. Is it unrealistic? Of course! But from an entertainment perspective, what do you think? Has Nintendo just spoiled its players? Should Skyrim have more variety... even if only in the environments it already has? That is... more variations of ice/snow, etc.

There are several different environments in Skyrim, too. But the differences are much more subtle; mostly because it is set in a specific area of an entire continent. That area happens to be Skyrim, the frozen, rocky, Northern province of Tamriel.

Variety wasnt the point...at least not THAT kind of variety! :slap:

Pretty much.

Though I'm mostly disappointed with the new perk limitation and pause menu, the new books svck.

As for atmosphere, there aren't any places that look like Skaal village or the mead hall in the Blood Moon expansion pack.

A lot of them wouldn't make sense (outer space, fire worlds, Ice Worlds?), and those that would exist on Nirn would require an even bigger explorable area in the game as in Skyrim you are on a particular part of a continent - essentially you are in Norway or Sweden to the rest of Europe, which also doesn't have jungles or deserts.

But anyway it sometimes happens in fantasy (and other genres) that the environment isn't considered enough in terms of realism. Great deserts bordering forests, Jungles thinning out into icy tundras... It wouldn't make sense to have desert or jungles in Skyrim.

No. Personally speaking that kind of variety would be bad (and Morrowind was consistent with its environment. It varied but not like that)

Yes I believe the fact that we can not steal cars is also annoying. Has Rockstar just spoiled it's players or should there be cars for us to steal?

I was thinking about this the other day too. One of my first RPGs was Final Fantasy IV (2 US). The game literally grabbed every possible cliche but it was cool to me at the time (and of course still is). I do think Skyrim should have some Planes (not of Oblivion) but like the Painting quest in Oblivion.

Actually, all three of those would make sense in Elder Scrolls.

Yes, even outer space; Akatosh has a Spaceship.

Oblivion has many planes that are fire based, and Molag Bal's pocket void is that of ice.

I think the main problem Skyrim has is the size of the gameworld. It's tiny. It already feels a little bit unbelievable going from a gloomy forest to rocky tundra to glacial regions in a matter of minutes. If they tried adding even more diversity, it would just get silly.

Skyrim is the icewind dale of the Elder Scrolls games. Its mostly going to be a frozen mountainous wasteland, a vast plain (winterhold), and I have found myself walking in a very dark forest at night with giant spiders creeping about. Skyrim has about the variety one would expect from the Nord homeland. There's different styles of dungeons, there's caves, there's forts, there's crypts and underground sewer systems. I say its just right.

Didnt play two worlds did you? there you could stand on a snowy mountaintop and see a blistering hot desert half a mile away,

I think the abrupt weather changes emphasise the compactness of Skyrim even more, it can go from sunny to blizzard in half a minuite. I feared weather would be 'triggered' and it has been. You can run back and forth the borders of the holds and guarentee what weather will occur.

The problem is that the land of skyrim doesnt allow for much variety in the first place. Morrowind had swamps, forests, deserts, volcanos, a sabanah and tundra. But a volcano spitting rivers of lava would look really silly in a cold landscape for example. Most likely the developers choose skyrim because of that, as a varied scenery would not fit in a single dvd. Maybe once microsoft makes a blu-ray based console we will see another world similar to morrowind.

Ah, I get you.

I guess that is ok if it is for a good reason, not just for a change of scenery. It is the kind of thing that can make for good expansion fodder if done right.

Speaking of which, and I haven't seen every place in Skyrim yet, is there an ice castle like in Bloodmoon?

What I'm getting at is... well... where's the fantasy? The land of Skyrim can be realistic for the most part, but what's wrong with some fantasy intermingled? Morrowind had a hovering asteroid for crying out loud. Oblivion had the White Gold Tower and fiery planes of Oblivion... and yes, the magical painting. What does Skyrim have? A giant mountain?

Where is the magic? It's not completely extinct. An enchanted snowy forest with bright, glowing bluish snow? An entire town made from ice/igloos? A frozen over lake with all sorts of creatures down below... maybe a crystal city under the frozen surface?

I know comparing a movie to a game is unfair, but I felt a magic in The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. The snow somehow felt... friendlier... cozier. Like I wanted to be there even though it was freezing cold. Skyrim feels much more... intimidating. Not just in general, but COMPLETELY.

I need to go play through all of the ice worlds in Nintendo games again. I'm sure there's some reason they felt special. I can't quite put my finger on it at the moment.


Ps. Yes, the compact size of Skyrim does hinder any true variety of atmosphere. But I'm sure there could be much improvement regardless.

There is a lot of variety in Skyrim, it's just not unrealistic stuff like in Nintendo games.
But there's a tundra, snowy mountains, green forests, swamps, every city has a different style, several kinds of dungeons, etc.

How many environments do you want in a fantasy game that tries to be believable?

This interview seems to be appropriate to this discussion at around 3:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAr0lefN1zQ

Like I said, it doesn't have to be extreme. But I am thinking of more "fantastical" as he mentioned. Think of Lord of the Rings. Realistic? Yes, but also fantastic. The magical woods of Lothlorien with giant trees. Minis Tirith and its seven levels. The mysterious Old Forest. The wilds of Fangorn. The great river Anduin with the carving of the great kings. The Endless Stair of Moria.

Such important landmarks. Epic ones at that. Skyrim has its 7,000 steps, but it's just a glorified path around a mountain... no different than any other path around any other mountain.

Where is something like Morrowind's Cavern of the Incarnate that only opens at dawn or dusk? The sheer scale of the city of Vivec? Something as otherworldly as the fence of Ghostgate? Bloodmoon's Castle Karstaag? Oblivion's epic Imperial City?

The closest I've seen in Skyrim is Eldergleam Sanctuary.

I don't agree and I think that would actually be a very epic looking sight. Just look at some pictures of that very thing in places like Iceland.

Come to think of it, there are hot springs in Skyrim. Why in the world would there NOT be a settlement there? Do Nords just LOVE to freeze?

I love the environment of Morrowind, but I think the claims of "alien" are way over exaggerated.

It was swamps. It was mountains. Volcanic ashlands. Plains and fields.

The only thing "alien" about it were the mushroom cities in the east.

The rest of it, while not necessarily "typical" fantasy, isn't exactly anything mind blowingly unique either.

This. I want realism in the game. They gave it.

Isn't that what made Oblivion boring?

Mind blowingly unique no, but unlike both oblivion and skyrim it didn't feel like earth with dragons and magic. I don't think anyone wants a totally bizarre world, just alien enough to not feel like the LOTR or other traditional fantasy world clone 2.0.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure Guars, Silt Striders, and giant, floating jellyfish are at least moderately alien. It's more in the creature design than the actual landscaping (although those giant mushrooms are rather surreal).

Most people didn't find it boring. But Skyrim is miles different then Oblivion graphically so it still pulls it off to me. Tamerial's a country and it would feel [censored] if every game had a dessert, a forest, and a snowy mountain...