Hey Everyone,

I am conducting research about Norse Mythology and its influence on the moden Western style fantasy RPG. I am interested in any and all feedback about how this influence is important to the tropes and archetypes that may or may not be integral in your attraction to Fantasy Epics or RPG's. Does it matter at all to you, does it appeal to you as a gamer? (i.e. do you like trolls, elves, the mystic Northern landscape one finds throughout skyrim etc.) I am excited to see any and all initial feedback and then I will pose some more questions as it grows. Looking forward to your feedback

Guilty Sparktan

Personally, I'm not into Norse mythology, and didn't care for the northern settings of either Solstheim or Skyrim. In fact, the ONLY race of character that I've never even made an attempt to play in a TES game has been a Nord; I wasn't exactly thrilled with the Orc character I ran, and a Nord would have given exactly the same issues, or worse. I think there's plenty of stuff out there already for Norse-based fantasy, and I'd rather see something that borrows from a more esoteric source (and goes off on a tangent from there), like Aztec, Hindu, or some other relatively untapped set of myths and legends.

Incidentally, I didn't buy or play Skyrim, and have no real interest in it, not only for the setting I don't care for, and because of the Steam requirement, but because the game series has strayed from mostly character-based RPG to a more player-skill based Action game, with a few watered-down RPG elements to justify keeping "RPG" in the description.

Honestly, I felt Skyrim was more aesthetically inspired by Norse mythology than influenced by it, most of the lore in it is held over from previous games. The Nord specific Norsey stuff is okay I guess, but far too derivative. I hate to bring up Morrowind, but the Dunmer culture was definently more original, and whilst the Nord lore in Skyrim is by no means a carbon copy of norse mythology it doesn't stray far off the well known paths of Norse mythology, whereas the Dunmer lore was impossible to pigenhole, as was the lore of Daggerfall.

The Nords, much like the Orcs, are too cliched as the archetypes they came from (big, dumb Norse barbarian, big, dumb goblin-like brute). The Nords are even worse than the orcs, because at least with the orcs they built lore for them from the ground up, whereas with the Nords their lore sounds like it was written to sound like Norse mythology, rather than written to sound original.

Going a bit further then, knowing as we do how influenced Tolkien was by Norse literature and Mythology in his work and how important that work was to D&D and by association much of the following Fantasy work in video games... whether it is WoW, Everquest, LoTR online, Skyrim etc... is it fair to say the use of elves, magic, dragons, forces of order vs. chaos etc. is important to the make up of successful and/or appealing Fantasy Epics?

There are some original ideas about the Nords. I don't find it entirely derivative. Their god Shor is reminscent of the warrior god Thor of Norse mythology, but at the same time, the elves have a name for him: Lorkhan. The trickster. Which reminscent of Norse Loki. It's as if Thor and Loki are the same guy, depending on who you ask. In addition to that, they bring in a little Greek mythology into the mix and call Shor the god of the underworld.. and his domain and presence is earthbound. This is similar to Hades. Poseidon controlled the Sea, Zeus the Sky, and Hades was given control of the earth and mortal world. We go back to Norse myth again in a roundabout way and also give Shor some qualities of Odin and the Valkyries. The Valkyries were said to be female warriors who gathered the fallen warriors of earth and gathered them up to Valhalla.. They were lifted there in preparation for the Battle of Ragnarok, the Final conflict. Shor is said to be doing the same thing - having control of the underworld, he gathers the mighty fallen into Sovngarde, for (what I guess) may be a final showoff with Auri-El and the elves. But it's not entirely Odin like. It's Hades meets Thor meets Odin. To the elves however, he's just a trickster.

So given that you can identify these things and they are pretty obvious, do you feel it adds to your experience and helps you easily identify with the content; does it add any extra layers for you? or is it unremarkable?

Well first off - Welcome to the Forums! Anybody got a spare Fishy Stick for our new companion?

I for one love Norse mythology. I have always felt a pull towards it (see C.S. Lewis and the experience of "joy"; I had the same experience) and absolutely love the whole aesthetic/image of the North. When I saw that TESV was going to be in Skyrim I was excited but would have bought it whether or not it was in the "North". I'm just a huge TES fan and will buy the games regardless of Norse imagery etc.



For me (as a theologian, student of mythology, and writer) I feel these things -help- a fantasy story but they are not the -essence- of the fantasy story. They help form the architecture but are not the totality of the building (e.g. Ionic columns have circular decorations, but the decorations do not make them columns, only a different kind of column vs. (say) Doric, or Corinthian). The inclusion of typical fantasy "tropes" help us see it is a fantasy story (read: mythology - with everything that means (see Joseph Campbell)).

What I love about TES is how it is not bound by typical fantasy ideas. Generally speaking mythology (monomyth) is about the Hero's Journey (archetype of the Reluctant Hero): going into Faerie, and the Return; that is, going outside our usual limitations and/or thought processes to find that which we need to save our people, our selves, our world. TES approaches "fantasy" not so much from this view (classic monomyth) but puts their own spin on it (see espeically enantiomorph and "the prisoner"). Classic images and ideas are re-created with new emphasis.

Korr has already mentioned Shor/Lorkhan. Here you have a typical fantasy trope ("trickster") which is completely altered by the TES approach. Lorkhan becomes the creator of the world (through trickery) and the hero of humankind, and thus, the enemy of elvenkind. What could have been a sterotypical Loki becomes a combination of many mythoi referencing real-world religions and myths. For the Thalmor Lorkhan is the liar who binds them to mortality, death, disease, and keeps them from their return to divinity. For the Nords Lorkhan (Shor) is the Odinic hero whose wisdom brings about liberation from chaos and disorder and (through his mantler Talos) embodies the quest for apotheosis.

I don't mind it in Elder Scrolls since it seems to be inspired by it from the get-go, but to be honest there is other kinds of real world mythologies that I find much more interesting. Slavic is my personal favorite.

I love Scandinavian history, but not so much for the mythology or the romanticised view of Norse / Viking culture. Seeing that kind of thing present in a video game does nothing for me at all.

I don't mind finding Norse mythological anologies in my gaming experience, but at the same time I'm sure it's not absolutely necessary to bring them up. Indeed, Skyrim's aesthetic changes from previous games (with an eye toward making the Norse connections more obvious) were pretty irritating in many ways because they didn't seem very original. Even then, underneath the aesthetics can be found a backstory that is drawn from previous games more than from a desire to appear "Norse"; if anything, some of that backstory is likely an attempt to hide Norse stories (to say nothing of others' stories) in a new skin, not make those connections more obvious. To me, finding obvious comparisons is unremarkable to be sure, and if it's done in a series that is known for its originality it's also kind of annoying. If there are to be comparisons of any kind, I would prefer that they be made more subtlely, or at least better hidden.

Now there are some fairly usual appearances in the fantasy genre, and it appears that TES indulges in some of them as well (Elves vs. Men being most notable). But in terms of the overarching conflict, you don't need elves to have an opposing viewpoint; any religious difference has been good enough in real life, and no one says you can't just copy one of them and call it fantasy as well. Magic, on the other hand, is almost certainly necessary in fantasy, in my opinion (though I can think of a few exceptions; at least one, though, replaces magic with religion, which does much the same job). Part of the appeal of the genre is that a reader or player can do things that literally cannot be done in real life. Magic provides the means to change things on a fundamental level. This is easily paired with some sort of pseudo-medieval combat because the "knight in shining armor" is an easy-to-aspire-to ideal, to say nothing of its nostalgic value. Magic undermines the need for modern weaponry, so there's no need to bring guns into such games (weapons which few, other than Stephen King, seem to have such a nostalgic view about). These basic ideas, while perhaps not fundamental to a fantasy plot, seem to be somewhat fundamental to fantasy story construction.

TES's previous installments have proven that dragons, while nice, aren't necessary for a good fantasy story. They have their uses, either as the villain or, in more modern reversals, the stand-in for any absent wizard, but they are no more necessary to construct a fantasy plot than elves or dwarves or any other fantasy "race." If you're desperate to kill impossible-to-kill creatures, dragons are only one of many options for you to choose from. That said, they're very recognizable, and the old "dragonslayer" standby character has the same kind of nostalgic factor that surrounds the "knight in shining armor," often because those two are one and the same. While somewhat disappointing, it's not necessarily a surprise that Skyrim decided to utilize this kind of archetype, although they did do a bit to mitigate that disappointment by changing the dragonslayer's reasoning behind their actions to better reflect the already-developed backstories that (usually) avoided obvious, recognizable, and direct copies of characters and situations from real-life mythologies and other sources.

But the issue of order vs. chaos... I don't know if this is exactly a fantasy idea, or a general idea. It's easier to pull off in fantasy, in my opinion, because the enemy is generally as strange as the rest of the world, and therefore an author or developer can get away with making the enemy as hideous and nonsensical as they want in order to raise the stakes for the hero: "If you fail to defeat this guy, it's that much worse than it would be in a real-life setting." But other genres sometimes fall into this trap as well, for much the same reason. TES is somewhat different because, while chaos is aligned with demons in all but name while order is aligned with the so-called gods, there are exceptions. Indeed, the major powers of the game world, while worshiping order-aligned gods, often reserve their highest reverence for the third-most chaotic being in the universe, either in his original form or (more usually) under some other mask. This kind of twist to the old idea is great to see, but it exists in my view mainly because previous fantasy stories involved the idea, and turning it around for a niche audience's enjoyment was more fun and rewarding than removing it completely. I don't think it's necessary to have such a conflict in order to create a fantasy world, but I think it does reflect the desire for many audiences to see the world in black and white, so it will be difficult to dislodge.

I'm not sure if I was at all helpful with any of this rambling.

I disliked the Norse central aesthetic and vibe that the Nords were given in Skyrim. It was TOO emphasized. TOO reminiscent of generic Viking fantasy in far TOO many ways. There were too many parallels between the Nords and the Norse imo. They should have tried to move away from that vibe as much as they could within the context of still being vaguely reminiscent of Norse mythology. I was hoping for another culture like the Dunmer(as in incredibly original and unique). What I got was basically fantasy vikings. They didn't have to have Viking looking buildings, weapons and armor. But they did. The Nords were what I considered my second favorite TES race. Now they just got made much more boring than then had to be. Of course this is all my opinion. They definitely have many redeeming qualities.

"It's funny how you don't hear much about the Nords' rampant cannibalism nowadays." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bone

As someone who doesn't really know much about what makes the fantasy genre what it is, can you (that is, the OP) tell me if there is a relative absence of any other mythologies and belief systems (or copies of them) in most fantasy works? I find that difficult to believe, but then again, I know a lot less about the Norse system than I do about the Greek and Roman system(s), which don't really seem to have much impact in these works.

Let me start by saying I really appreciate all the comments and feedback and it is helpful to know what goes on in the mind of the Fantasy gamer as they are playing. It might interest you all to know I am conducting this research for a thesis paper I am writing as a guest student at Copenhagen's IT University's Ludology department. I have spent a lot of time of Scandinavia, including Norway, (which is very reminiscent of the landscape one see's in Skyrim) and I spent much of my undergraduate studies on medieval history and did a great deal of research on the Viking period specifically.

Having said that, I would like to ask a bit of a strange question that has been trending in the academic world of video gaming, which has a lot to do with gender and race and all these sorts of inequality issues that are prevalent in the academic community these days.

Trying to think outside of Skyrim for a moment, do you as the player see a difference between a (so-called) "White and Westernized" style of RPG versus the Eastern or more Asian oriented RPG's and does one or the other perhaps appeal to in your ability to identify with the story or themes versus the other? Are you attracted to the exotic nature or storytelling of one or the other depending on what is familiar or different to you..?

I know its a bit of a stretch and perhaps has not occurred to you as a player or perhaps it has. There are many who feel the things that the academic community are concerned with are being turned into a much larger deal, by them, than they really are. Where do you land on this? are the issues of race and gender in gaming important to you or is it a silly problem?

Peloponnese,

There are many Mythologies found throughout the Fantasy genre, there is a special relationship between Mythology and Fantasy stories. However, and this is my opinion, more than any other mythological sphere, Norse mythology, has the largest impact on the Fantasy genre thanks in large part to J.R.R Tolkien who studied Norse mythology and added elements of it into his work which then influenced much which was to follow. Things such as Elves and Dragons and the strange magic (as well as numerous other elements) that you see in Tolkien's work as well as World of Warcraft, Skyrim, Warhammer etc. were originally from medieval Norse literature. While the original stories and poems have few details about the nature of these creatures (trolls, elves, dragons etc.) Tolkien really turned them into what they are today. And while most of what we have come to identify the Fantasy world bares little resemblance to the original texts (which were, by the way, written after the end of the "Pagan" period in Scandinavia...) they still attract a large interest and generate a lot of material even though, as mythologies go, Norse mythology is one of the least known about mythologies of the West especially when compared to Greek, Roman and Egyptian mythologies. Does That Help?

What I am trying to determine, is if there is an attractive Western identity which players are attracted to, or if it really does not matter at all. It is interesting to see if the things we are forced to think about in the classroom and discuss for hours on end really matter outside of our class, or if it is just all in our heads and we are over anolyzing it.

I take it you're doing the Rice University course.

Before I offer my opinion, I think it my be worth taking a look at the Is Skyrim like Ireland? Thread on these boards. While I agree that elements such as the religious beliefs of the universe, or the presence of 'elves' are reminiscent of Scandanvian mythology, the fuedal and societal traits, as well as many of the ruins present in the game, are more like Ireland. I've made a few posts in that thread, it may be worth reading if you're trying to discern if it is solely Norse mythology that evokes a reaction in "gamers"

I also think that part of the reason the Norse mythology is a focus for fantasy is to do with Tolkien's work. As a stemming point for most modern fantasy, the Lord of the Rings is the most well known and original works. This may in turn have set a new definition of high fantasy, including much of Tolkien's ideas. So perhaps the reason is to do with its inclusion in Tolkien's work and the success of it.

Just a disclaimer. I love Norse mythology and culture. I dislike when it is copied over in such a way as those with, shall we say a less than academic knowledge on the matter, assume that they are one and the same. It cheapens both ideas imo. I love western mythologies, specifically the Greeks and Scandinavians, but dislike seeing them transported into another medium in such a cookie cutter fashion. Especially when it is generic fantasy viking tropes that are carried over and not the real thing.

Tolkien's heavy use of Norse themes and concepts is apparent, but he drew extensively from other sources as well. There are numerous strong parallels between his "war of the ring" and the Greek-Persian wars, as well as bits drawn from other Middle Eastern sources, including such little tidbits as these:

Shadowfax was referred to as "one of the Mearas", which were the sacred white horses which pulled an empty Persian chariot reserved for any god who showed up and wished to participate in the battle.

In Tolkien's works, the river Silverlode ran through the land of Lorien, whereas the Greeks found a high-grade vein of silver in the province of Lorien which they used to fund the construction of a fleet to destroy the Persian fleet.

Barad Dur is the name of Sauron's fortress, where "dur" referred to "fort" in the ancient Assyrian empire: Dur Asshur, Dur Sharukin, etc.

Atilla led an army which called themselves "uruks", and which Tolkien altered into "orcs". The elite mounted bodyguard units were called the Uruk Hai; sound familiar?

I find these more interesting than the overhyped and over-used Norse themes which followed "en masse" in the popular literature.

As mentioned, Skyrim appears to have taken the Norse theme a bit too far "as is", rather than creating something unique and interesting only loosely based on it (like what was done with the Dunmer). If I want "history", I'll play a historical wargame (which I do frequently), not a fantasy game (of which I only play a few of the "better" and well thought-out ones).

I googled the Rice University class you were talking about... interesting but the discipline is different from what I am trying/needing to accomplish.

I talk about Norse mythology because that is indeed the most overused and common theme running through fantasy, but that is, of course, not the only thing used by Tolkien or the Fantasy genre as a whole. Indeed Tolkien was an avid fan of all things mythological and well educated about many different kinds; to be clear the appeal and ease with which Norse mythology has been used is due to the near-complete lack of primary sources on the topic, which leaves much room for the imagination and Tolkien did a good enough job with it to warrant the popularization and appeal of these ongoing "tropes."

But perhaps some of you have input as to how these "tropes" may appeal to you and your ability to get into the role playing going on, what attracts you to these types of games and is there anything unique to the Fantasy genre that keeps you coming back for more? Is there a specific identity to a western style RPG that appeals to you as a player? or does it really not matter at all?

My interest lies outside of role playing; it's something that I've never had the opportunity to do, and most of my experience with it comes from the outside looking in (reading these forums or DM of the Rings or similar). My main interest in fantasy works is escapism, but that same interest has led me to learn about history (specifically ancient and medieval history), so the two marry well in my opinion. And that interest in history continues in the fantasy works that I read or play; I try to learn as much about the backstory as I possibly can. That's where my interest lies, so my replies to any of your questions might not be what you're looking for at the end of the day.

The copy/pasting of Tolkien tropes is sometimes annoying, not just in TES but also elsewhere. That said, it's also somewhat comforting to find the same elements in new games, because we know what we're getting ourselves into when we decide to join in. Those tropes can also be justified in certain circumstances, when the work is purposely derivative (Jacqueline Carey's The Sundering is an excellent look at LotR from the other side of the coin, for instance, with the details smudged just enough to make it original). But I personally don't really think much of them. My interest in most fantasy works is looking at the backstory, the history, the mythology, just like I look at the real world's. That's where I determine whether or not I like a work, based on how well it catches my interest and imagination. The use of tropes in the backstory shouldn't be repetitive or too derivative (unless its derivation is the point), but eventually every new story will have to retell an old one somehow. The question is, can they tweak the old story well enough to be original even then? Other than the aesthetics of Skyrim and Oblivion, I'd like to think that TES has mainly succeeded. Then again, without knowing much about actual mythology outside of the Greek cycle, I can't even say that with certainty.

Yes I see a difference (cf. Final Fantasy and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance); the cultural difference doesn't impede my ability to identify though sometimes I'm unclear of what different characters represent (archetypes etc) or what their relationship to the protagonist is. And sometimes the translations are lacking in clarity, leaving me unclear on what's going on plot and relationship wise. But I have a decent understanding of Eastern philosphies and/or religions so that may help me quite a bit.

I don't mind either type of game or story-telling BUT I tend to prefer western games largely because I don't like certain popular game mechanics in eastern games (turn-based combat). Interestingly my standard for gaming is now TES - the free-roam open-ended gaming of the series has largely ruined me for other games. I used to love FPSs but can't play them now (except for Fallout). I -think- this is based on what I want out of a game which is freedom, exploration, "escapism"/sense of visiting another place/time, and "reality" (Fallout 3 "feels" like the world might be after a nuclear war etc). I'm not currently aware of any eastern games that follow this formula but if there are I'd been on them in no time.


Re: Western identities - yes. Or at least specific archetypes. I love all of the three major fantasty archetypes (warrior, mage, thief) and play all of them depending on the day. I'm also very interested in setting, exploring different cultures etc. I would love a TES type (free-roam open-end) game set in Victorian London - that would RULE. Something with the aesthetic of Johnny Depp's movie From Hell would be squee-worthy.

What I love most about RPing in TES is the way in which I can build characters who (may or may not) reflect their cultural/racial biases and then choose their archetype/role as I see fit. This allows me (at least in my head) to create truly textured characters to play in a vibrant world. Hence I'm not limited to warrior, mage, thief or even barbarian, necromancer, or assassin - but can be all or none. I'm not sure if this is helpful or not.

In any case re: your comment about the classroom and the world outside it: as a recently graduate with an MA in Religion I TOTALLY get that.