This post was closed on the PC forum and redirected here, so I'll repost it here for appropriate audience.

I think Skyrim should be ported to Mac OSX, iOS (iPad), and Sony PSVita.

The PS3 version of Skyrim uses OpenGL, and it happens all the above three use the same graphics technology (OpenGL).
Mac OSX currently uses Intel (just like Windows machines), so it is also an easy port.

There are a few minor changes that may be needed to port to iOS and PSVita (learning ARM coding), but if they use higher level languages like C, it should shield them from most of the grunt work. I have a feeling they use interpreted languages, so that is even more higher up in abstraction (in the wrong way and direction though because of performance issues).

I hope they do realize that mobile devices are gonna take over the future gaming scene (if not already happening) in a big way. They are lucky because Android is stuck on java, so no 3D games on those (at least for hardcoe players like COD, Battlefield, and Bethesda games. But Apple iOS, Sony PSVita, the next Samsung non-Android OS, and probably Windows Phone (I think they learned their lesson and scrapped that slow .NET inspired XNA on mobile devices). There are a few holdouts that still want to go full HTML5 for everything including apps (stupid idea unless you want everything casual, and it would prevent Skyrim or graphic intense games from being ported or created).

I don't know, I have a feeling there is a dictator sitting somewhere guiding the industry but that dictator is out of touch with reality. Thinking Cloud can do everything, but neglect to take a look at certain segments of the world where it actually may do some harm. It harkens back to the Mainframe versus PC days. A powerful machine, lots of ascii terminals that are dumb. Then PC with smart CPU's inside took over the world and destroyed the mainframe model. Repeat. Sun comes around, wants "the network is the computer", but neglect to see that you need powerful CPU and performance in your pocket too, and they got destroyed. Then they want to move the games into the cloud and use the internet just to "pipe" the screen to your dumb device. Look where that company went (I think it is dead with no subscriptions). Just like people would rather be smart and can take care of themselves rather than be a drone always taking advice from someone far away, people want powerful machines in their pockets. This is why interpreted languages should NOT be on mobile devices eating at battery life and performance. This is why mobile devices should get more and more powerful so they rival mainframes long ago. So the best model is not Dumb devices connecting to Powerful Server. It should be Powerful devices connecting to Powerful other Devices (you can group these as a cloud if you want). Either can work without one another. Even better, bring the server functionality into your local device, so you can also host web servers in your own device if you want. Yes, there are a few things that needs to be solved before this becomes practical, but it is getting there, and it is not difficult.

Ok, now why am I rambling all of this? On this forum? Because it would be great to have Skyrim on a mobile device

First, do you have proof that handheld and portible gaming is the "next stage" of gaming? As in, actual articles?

Second, Skyrim as-is will simply not work on any modern portable device, or even ones currently in design stages. It requires too much memory than any portable device can hold, same with ram. For them to release Skyrim onto a portable would basically be them having to remake the game specifically for that format, most likely with less content as well.

Finally, with MacOS, it's simply not profitable, from a corporate executive standpoint. Windows makes up about 95-98% of the PC market, with Mac a second, and Linux a third (in the pecentage of a percent.) PS3 is one thing- as it's one of the big-name consoles, but not so much for apple products.

It would be awesome to have Skyrim on mobile devices, but they're just not there in terms of power yet. Skyrim will still lag a Quad-Core CPU running over 3GHz, can eat up over a GB of ram, and can max out most modern video cards with moderate settings. Even if you tried adjusting the graphics, I doubt you could lower them enough to even get it to run on a mobile device, let alone run at an acceptable speed. "A few minor changes" is a massive understatement in the least. If Bethesda could make some minor changes and access a market of millions of different devices, then they and every other company would have already been putting their latest 3d games on mobile platforms.

The PS3 version of Skyrim, as far as I know, does not use OpenGL(can you provide a source for this, please?). The PS3 has a implemented version of OpenGL, but often doesn't use it due to performance issues(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D#Portability). As far as I know, the PS3 uses Cg for it's main shader language.

As for mobile gaming taking over the future of the gaming scene? Depends what you mean by that... if you're counting Farmville gamers and the likes, yeah sure maybe, but there's a big audience for more in-depth and graphical, an audience that grows every year, and anyone who likes games like Skyrim isn't going to be throwing out their PCs and consoles to get more time in on Angry Birds. There's a lot of really cool mobile games out there, and they're definitely becoming more popular, but PCs and Consoles aren't going anywhere for a long time, and by then, who's to say Mobile Gaming will be on top, there could be some new type of entertainment that hasn't been invented or become mainstream yet.

Good arguments, but there are some misconceptions on what is possible on mobile devices.

Most mobile devices have 512MB DRAM as standard. Example? iPhone 4/4s. PSVita, iPad 2. It is 1GB standard going mid 2012 on (just look at the specs of Samsung, HTC, Apple, and maybe Motorola).
That is the same amount of RAM on PS3 and XBox360. The PSVita has an extra 128MB just for VRAM. What is NOT possible are devices with interpreted language stuck between the game and the metal (like Java and XNA), so Android is out, and so are any HTML5 only app devices. The PSVita has about 85% of the power of the PS3 given the screen size (examine the graphical capabilities of Golden Abyss) on current constraints. I believe once the OS footprint is made smaller, better looking games will come out. The PS3 only has 256 system ram, so RAM is not the problem. The performance of the CPU may be a good question to ask. Can Skyrim run on quad core ARM processors? Well, I've looked at Golden Abyss, and it doesn't do anything less than what Skyrim does, all you need is to port over the content.

Now I am not gonna say just Skyrim, but any games should be ported over. I think the final nail in the coffin for PC's is octo core ARM. By that time, it would be equivalent to current maxed out duo core PC's. Notebooks sell more than PC's these days, so the trend is not against mobility. In any case, I do seriously believe an Octo-Core ARM CPU (with good GPU) definitely exceeds the PS3 and XBox360 in performance. Quad-core ARM CPU is very close.

I'm not into mobile gaming, but one of the reasons I don't see Skyrim on say i-phone is the fact that it's pretty impossible to move nicely without something like a mouse/mushroom, button's just won't cut it. Someone feel free to prove me wrong.

Good point. Mobiles lack the built-in interface that consoles or computers have. To get a game like Skyrim to effectively play on one, they would require a keypad/mouse or controller attachment. A PSP has the required interface, but has less than a percent of what;s required to play Skyrim in terms of onboard memory (not RAM.)

That brings us to another question, is the memory of mobiles measured in megabytes or gigabytes?

I think the PSVita (PSP2) would then fit your definition of what is good enough for Skyrim. It has dual anolog sticks and the same buttons as a dualshock or sixaxis controller. The extra R2/R3/L2/L3 buttons can be mapped to the back touchpad. Mobiles has normally double the ram of consoles these days. And consoles are what runs hot games these days. The PSP is quite old. It came out before the PS3. You should think PSVita, or iPad 3. Like consoles, mobiles are measured in megabytes. However, the trend going into mid to late 2012 is minimum 1GB. I still think quad-core is minimum requirement for good games. The PSVita fits that. The iPad 2 and iPhone 4s not yet. However, since apple usually increases screen resolution and cpu speed in different years (one slows performance because of extra resolution, one speed performance because of better cpu), you need 2 years to really see the results of both together. iPad 3 will have retina display using only dual core. iPad 4 with retina display and quad core is ok, but iPad 5 with retina display and octo-core is the sweet spot. By that time (2014?) a standardization of hot tablets for gaming will have been defined. But yes, it would still lack gaming buttons, so all movement would have to be shifted towards touch and motion (gyros and accelerometers).

So before the iPad 5 comes out in 2014, the hardcoe games (on mobile devices) will slowly shift towards the PSVita, or people may skip mobile altogether and be satisfied with casual and will still play on the current consoles letting the developers squeeze more and more from the PS3 for example.

First thing first: http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html. Unless Microsoft relaxes its stringent app submission standards and SDK, however, Windows Phone is still forbidden to use native code. That's why there will be a Firefox Mobile for Android but not for Windows Phone.

Concerning the processing power of mobile devices, yes, it increased quite a lot since the first iPhone, but no, it's still not enough to really endanger a PC. For all the fuss that's been made with the current gen consoles, you'd be hard pressed to see an AAA game actually running in 720p. Let's not talk about 1080p. The only one I know is WipeOut on the PS3 and it looks like we're back in 2001, when shaders were the next big thing and a nice option to have beautiful water in Morrowind. As far as I know, my PC is quite able to run Skyrim in almost 1080p. Right now, Nvidia seems to be boasting about their next Tegra 3 chip which is supposed to be as powerful as a Core 2 Duo (plus a GPU). But look at more mundane things like memory bandwidth and suddenly, yet again, you're back in 2000. In applications as demanding as game, that can prove to be a complete performance breaker. Putting a large bus on such a chip justs draws too much power to be done yet.
Despite having nice stuff such as being dual or quad core, integrating some GPU able to decode H.264 in HD and other stuff, ARM-based chips are not and will probably never catch the performance of a PC CPU+GPU. In IT, there is often not that many solutions to solve a given problem. So either you developp an heck of a chip which is very powerfull to begin with, but with the drawback it'll svck a lot of power. Welcome Intel, AMD, and the high-end Nvidia and AMD GPU. Add their power together and you're in for 100-150 W.
Either you want to limit power comsumption and that comes at the price of performance and you're speaking about chips consuming too much power if they draw more than 1 W. Noticed a thing? Intel still have the most advanced manufacturing processes in the world. Yet, even the latest Atom is still not quite in the range of the best ARM offerings in term of power. Yes, they're more powerful and begin to be an interesting alternative enough to be put in future smartphones this year. But that certainly will never be enough to reach gaming desktop performance.

So, no, ARM or even Atom are not there yet, even with octo-core stuff. Besides, octo-core requires a lot of software optimisation to harness performance and in power constrained environment, you'll certainly have to reduce the frequency to make up for the added transistor count, thus reducing performance in single threaded applications. Guess what, I doubt you'll find that many games currently really benefitting from more than 2 cores.

Now, could the Skyrim engine be optimized to run on portable devices? And are those really the future of gaming? Maybe but that would probably require a lot of changes in the core gameplay, especially with tactile-only devices. Maybe that would give at first more limited experiments such as Redguard and Battlespire in the 90's. But I don't think the market is ready to shift towards mobile devices for hardcoe gaming. That might eventually happen in some way or the other, but I think that'll be in the next decade.

Oh I think you are too conservative in your time estimates. The PSVita is a device you think is only going to be released in the next decade? 2022? It is 2012 and it is out already (in asia though, usa and europe next month). Trust me when I say it is enough in processing power. Plus, it is not hampered by lowest common denominator platform guidelines on PC. (most developers program for pentum level support!). It is also not hampered by virtual drivers dogging windows7, so your code hits the metal for full performance.

How can the ps3, a 6 year platform have games that look just as nice as current spec pc's? Yes the operating system is a dog. Virtual layers upon layers. Interpreted code layers stuck between you and the metal. In the end it slows the machine so much it runs the same speed as someone who has access to the metal on 6 year old technology. Native code is important. Very important.

JNI in java allows native code, but coding in jni is hell. You are still stuck in java and the virtual machine, just some parts you recode per device in c. Google should just make android+, dump the java layer and do what windows did in the early days and maximize performace via drivers for the hardware. Google forces the devs to be the driver maker (making compatibility changes for ALL possible devices via jni). That is simply stupid. The OS Maker has the budget to create an uniform api for developers. Android forces this on the app makers (mostly game makers because of needed performance)

Java is SLOW! (like .net and xna and html5 apps) It eats too much memory. It has a garbage collector that hampers performance. These thing belong in big servers with tons of memory and processors, not a power limited mobile device where battery life is precious.

So google can align themselves right and pick up the compatibility support themselves (make drivers instead of slow java virtual machines that takes more time anyways to make compatible with different devices than simple modular drivers). Google allows itself to use c for android but forces devs to use slow java? Look at more and more pieces of android going non java. They need to compete with ios and they get rid of java piece by piece to get performance. (the browser and ui for example). The thing runs on linux anyways.

As for mobile device processing power, most are not hampered by virtual this and that (except android and maybe windows phone now that you mention they also dont support native code). People dont seem to understand that forcing people on a slow language is a bad thing. Look at OSX, if they allowed c from the beginning, games wont run slower on mac, compared to windows, for the same game and cpu hardware. Why is it slower on mac? Because osx has many objective-c that uses message passing, which is slower than procedural calls. Android is the same, only worse, they force a virtual machine on all devs, force them to be the driver makers( which means no game maker has the budget to make a game on that platform because of compatibility considerations)

I should wind this down.
So what does this mean? Mobile devices
equals the most powerful PC today because of lack of virtualization, direct access to the metal (ios has a few layers more than psvita, but not the progress inhibiting android java layer). Touch only games is not that bad, even better if you can wear the vision over your eyes for full virtual augmentation. If not look at psvita it has console with iphone touch stuck on top and bottom of it

There's a saying- don't count your chickens before they hatch.

You are putting way too much faith in a technology that is just getting started. It's entirely possible it will never take off, due to user perceptions of the capabilties of the device, or market shoveout by competing devices that demonize it. Or overhype. Or maybe users just simply don't like playing a game on a touchscreen-only device.

Look at Vista- it was supposed to be the biggest thing in windows, and after SP2, it was pretty decent. Yet it has the stain because of how poorly it performed when released, and had to be replaced by Windows 7 because of the backlash by consumers.

Look at Daikatana. It was billed to be one of the best games out there, and was a media sensation. Then it was released, and was a financial failure due to extremely low quality. Look at CDs. By the time they really caught on, it was only a few years before they were rendered obsolete by DVDs. Same with HD-DVDs and Betamax. TV was "supposed" to kill radio. Sattleite was "supposed" to kills cable.

Look at American Idol and other reality shows. They were supposed to kill scripted TV shows... but plenty of scripted TV shows are doing well, and American Idol is losing ground against them.

The point is that things can go against your expectations. Companies will *always* make their products look good, tv producers will *always* make their shows look good. It's good to get excited, but don't fall into the hype and believe the next thing is the best thing since sliced bread, because chances are it's not. Remember Stugeron's Law- effectively 90% of everything is utter crap.

edepot, first, let me highlight the fact that the PSVita is indeed a very good device to run a portable version of Skyrim, if not the best one.

Now, I think you're missing the point.

Yes, mobile devices will someday eat PC and consoles alike while fullfilling our everyday computing needs. No, that won't happen because everyone will suddenly code in C, C++ or ASM. Virtual machines and all those abstraction layers you deride are providing too much a security, ease of programming and portability advantage to be flushed by the toilet and/or let place to native code anytime soon. The overarching trend in IT has always been to be adding abstraction layer upon abstraction layers. That's for the best, if you're developping some kind of glorified HTML reader to have a Windows Phone App to read your local newspaper, you don't care about managing memory, not should you even have to dabble with that mess. If you're making a game, that's still worth considering though it could still doors open for exploits and thus, malware. But Apple and Microsoft and to a lesser extent, Google, don't ever want to bother with users complaining about security holes, disfunctionning devices silently calling surtaxed phone number. Which is why they'll all do their possible to enforce strict coding directives and let developpers only a limited choices of programming languages to begin with. Most of them imply handing over memory and hardware management to the VM or the OS and never ever looking back.

You're plainly wrong when you state that a PS3 can look as nice as a modern PC. Let not even begin to speak about mobile devices, be they PSVita or I-whatever. Only multiplatform games let you think that, as the consoles, not the PC, are now the lowest common denominators. Compare the required specifications for Oblivion and Skyrim on PC, they're not as far away as they should be 5 years later or as far as Oblivion is with Morrowind, with only 4 years between those two. Now try to run Skyrim in 1920*1080 with a few antialiasing and evolved shader effects on the PS3, you'll just toast the console. It has simply not enough memory nor processing power to handle that. Why do you think hi-res texture packs and shader enhancements are the bulk of the mods released so far for Skyrim? It's not only because the CK is not there yet, it's also because most PC just can easily handle more hi-res textures and heavier, more advanced shaders effects than the 7 year old GPUs found in consoles. No amount of software optimisation will enable a developper to implement something that is just not there or possible to compute in real time. Most developpers are beginning to see the PC with newfound interest as their hardware capabilities enable them to reach higher technical improvements while consoles are left behind. It has been plainly visible this year, given how unambiguously superior PC versions have been (see Battlefield 3).
As for ARM CPU, being quad-core and running at 2 GHz is still not enough to reach the performance of a PC. If it was so, Intel would already own the market as they still have the most advanced chip manufacturing process, which in turn means the more power-efficient chips. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2012/01/will-medfield-be-the-chip-intel-needs-to-take-on-arm.ars, even though they badly want to.

Aww... You are missing the point. The reason why developers go for consoles and mobile devices like PSVita is because of a common denominator and access to the metal. the common denominator is also like you say... "don't ever want to bother with users complaining about security holes,". Have you noticed that apps have to be approved before being released? If security is your argument then you must not know the main reason most game developers now go for consoles and Apple devices is the common denominator, mass adoption, AND security (you can say from piracy or from virus). It is because of such security that consumers are complaining, but NOT developers, because devs have it both ways, security from random distribution (piracy), and mass adoption of platform at low price because of subsidization (via cellular carrier plan or licensing on the platform). Also, you seem to separate consoles from mobile devices (lumping console with pc, against mobile devices). I think from certain company's viewpoint (like Sony) they (mobile devices and consoles) support each other. Have you notice that Apple is also following this trend? They develop the iPhone/iPod Touch and the iPad, and now moving in on AppleTV (the console). They don't actually compete because software can be run on both (minor tweeks in resolution). Similarly, the PSVita uses the same ecosystem of PSN and remote play on both devices. You seem to miss the point that eventually AppleTV and OSX (through emulation layer) will in the future run iOS apps. This is if the next OSX is not fully ported to ARM processors yet. There was prototype of the Apple notebook that ran on ARM.

You seem to think there is a massive divide between intel and ARM. Actually, IT DOESN'T MATTER! The PSP ran on MIPS. The PSVita ran on ARM. The PSVita can run PSP games through emulation because the processors inside are fast enough. The PSP could emulate PS1 games just fine because the processors inside is fast enough. I could care less if Intel or ARM or whoever wins the processor race. As long as it serves the purpose of high performance inside a mobile device, long lasting (actually the future is always on remote charging), and removal of bad slow virtual layers. People think in order for something to be secure, it must be abstracted. That is nonsense. Flash is a virtual layer, and it is usually the first layer providing security problems on a computer. A security layer can be designed without abstracting the hardware. If this is not possible, how do you think XBOX360 and PS3 survive nowadays. You also seem to miss the big point... You CAN'T run Skyrim or Battlefield or COD on Android! The Java layer prevents this whole market of software on these devices. Devs will have to bend over backwards trying to sidestep the java, PER DEVICE using JNI.

As for PS3 not looking as good as PC with maxed out specs... yes. You are right. However, have you noticed that the majority of the people who buy games for PC use a medium or low spec PC? The hardcoe specs are like 10% of the market. Devs can't survive on 10% of the PC population. Also, Skyrim sold multiple times more on consoles than PC's (many many times! ). The vast majority 90% of the PC gamers have specs where once you add in the SLOW operating systems layer, it equals or gets below PS3 specs running code natively (a machine 6 years old). This is why I am puzzled at why Android STILL uses java. Java eats memory, is slow, offers bad compatibility per device for game developers (JNI anyone?). It is like forcing a handicap on yourself from the beginning. They want more 3D hardcoe games on their devices, but force the developers to use java, while they themselves use C for almost every other aspect of Android. Someone needs to tell Google to just make Android+ and make native C without java a possibility on those devices. Soon, more and more Gameloft or Unreal engine games will come out on iOS and people will cater to an APPLE because of the games.

And I've noticed you haven't addressed the liklihood that mobile gaming will replace consoles and PCs. People have been saying that PCs are dead since (at least) the release of the Xbox, yet the market is still strong.

If the tech can do it, a company *may* introduce games on mobiles if they think it will be profitable, but they'll also release it on PCs and Consoles, so long as those two are in production. To limit yourself to one type of thing isn't a smart investment- it may (and historically has) happen that the market dries up overnight, and then the company is screwed because it put so much effort on releasing on one platform/type it can't accomidate to the sudden shift in market. Gold Rush towns are a good example- so long as the gold was there, the towns thrived. When the mine was exhasuted, most became empty ghost towns because they couldn't sustain themselves any other way than by mining. This is why oil and car companies are now investing in other "clean" technologies- they can see that Oil isn't as plentiful as it once was, and are now making sure that they expland into other sources of energy *when* the last well dries up so they don't have to worry about a mad-dash to save themselves from bankruptcy and disbandment.

Skyrim is of course coded in C++, don't know why you would even slightly belive otherwise. Same goes with any other modern AAA game for PC, 360 and PS3. If it was coded in java or whatever, it would be a whole lot slower.

No, it won't. Well, unless you count in casual games like Angry Birds and various pussle/brain games. But for AAA games people all over the world mainly go to their console or PC, except for Japan. For some reason Japan do like mobile gaming a lot, but even there PSP Vita sold relatively poorly as the http://kotaku.com/5878088/ps-vita-now-selling-less-than-psp-in-japan-says-report.

But all those PSP JRPGs are a niche market in the west and not many people care for them so it's hardly something that can move western people from stationary gaming to mobile gaming.

No, it isn't. Android was supposed to be stuck on Java back when it was first announced, but that changed very quickly so you're sitting on 4 year old information here. Which is a very long time in the tech world.

Simple, it doesn't. Compare Skyrim to a current spec PC and it's a massive difference. Much high resolution, much longer detailed viewing distance, much higher FPS and lots of AA. To say it looks just as nice is simply just wrong.

Not to mention the PS3 have a fair share of RAM issues. It only have 256MB system RAM, and reserve quite a chunk of those to XMB so the game have even less to work with. The whole lots of extra RAM available on a current spec PC is worth much more than the API slowdown the PC platform suffer from.

The API slowdown is because the APIs have to communicate with the hardware on a driver level, rather than directly as can be done with fixed hardware. But this is hardly without benefits as it allow the users to change their hardware as they please. Not to mention it's not really that much of a slowdown to begin with, and DirectX11 supposingly improve upon this quite a bit compared to DirectX9 too (Skyrim is a DirectX9 game on the PC).

Agreed, this seem to be more like tech preaching/rambling than anything. But there are already plenty of inaccuraties in his preachings, not to mention the fluff over substance.

That said, I would by no means mind a new portable TES game. I already have Stormhold and Dawnstar from 2003 and Shadowkey from 2004. So I've played the previous mobile TES games. But it will hardly take over from the main games, but instead be a spin-off.

Hi Marss, I'll provide some links. I thought my response in #9 and #12 already answered the mobile question?
Rather than restate what I've already stated in #9 and #12, I thought it may be better to simply provide some links.


http://www.vgchartz.com/weekly/40923/Global/

Count how many above out of 40! are PC titles. Hint: 3
Count how many Call of Duty sold on consoles: 23 million. PC: less than 1 million.


Oblivion:
3.5 million on Xbox: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/636/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/
2.5 million on PS3: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/6071/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/
0.5 million on PC: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/7312/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion/

Skyrim:
5.1 million on Xbox: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/49113/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/
3.0 million on PS3: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/49112/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/
1.7 million PC: http://www.vgchartz.com/game/49111/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/

Games on PC has been dying since a LONG time ago.

Now the mobile question. Do you know how much money Apple makes? Do you know how many billions of games were downloaded from iTunes each year? Hint: more than ALL consoles AND PC combined.
Do you know how many hardcoe 3D games are on Android? None. Do you know how many on iOS devices? Look at gameloft.com Look at Unreal technology on iOS platforms. The rest on PSP.
Yeah, I don't mention NDS because I don't feel it has high enough specs (but it outsells a lot of mobile devices).

As for Odd Elf, I don't like repeating things already said. Look at post #9 and #12. #9 describes how all programs are bound in java, even if you were to make jni calls per device for compatibility. If you don't know the inner workings of Android, you can do some research first before commenting. Hint: What does the J in JNI stand for? Yep Java. Skyrim uses scripting. I actually hoped someone would come out and spew forth what scripting engine they use, and whether they use Python or other similar interpreted languages. Do they use LUA? If you don't know, there are two main types: virtual machine scripting and compiled to native code scripting. Those requiring a garbage collector and a virtual machine (like java and c#, and python) are bad for games. All Android devices force you to use Java. A lot of mobile devices (like phones) are coming out requiring HTML5 for apps (no native code), and that svcks too. If you feel I have said inaccurate things, feel free to provide what they are. Otherwise, it looks like I am correcting you.

The death of PC gaming is a topic that pops up about every time a developper, journalist or anolyst seeks easy buzz. It is forecast about every other month since PC gaming exists, because of a new gen of consoles will supposedly provide so much power that it'll take at least 6 months for PC to catch them, because there is too much piracy or because... Now look a bit more on your figures. On Oblivion PC, it just doesn't count North America for some reason, so you have a big, glaring hole in them. More importantly, VGChartz http://www.vgchartz.com/methodology.php. Given the fact that there is now more than https://www.google.com/search?q=valve+steam+users&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:fr:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Kfj&rls=org.mozilla:fr%3Aofficial&source=hp&q=valve+steam+40+million+users&pbx=1&oq=valve+steam+40+million+users&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=41625l46282l0l46428l23l19l0l0l0l3l309l3329l2.10.6.1l19l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=85298937a03c33b5&biw=1680&bih=946 and an average of http://store.steampowered.com/stats/ users connected at any given time, that's hardly what I'd call a dying platform. I don't want to add salt to the wound, but Minecraft is said to have sold more than http://www.minecraft.net/, and you'll choke on that sentence, but Minecraft is actually written http://www.minecraft.net/game/credits. Oh and did I mention the World of Warcraft crowd, still counted around 10 millions users, the South-Korean Starcraft community, the whole trove of independant games, free to play (and mostly pointless btw) games running in Facebook?
Now, if my Windows 7 has so many slow layers, how do you explain that it is running Skyrim at 20-60 fps in 1680*1050, AA 2X, AF 16X, mostly high details, with drawing distances almost set to the max on a paltry Core 2 Duo running at 3 GHz, with 6 GB of memory and a GeForce 560? The bulk of the platform is 5.5 year old, the video card is arguably in the mid-range and will be displaced anytime in 2012. Yet, Skyrim and every single game still runs flawlessy while handling a far far heavier workload than your average console/portable device.

I won't argue about the fact that no one can actually quantify the size of the PC platform. From what I've seen since about 15 years in almost exclusive PC gaming, there is a notable decrease in exclusive AAA titles on PC. Most of them became multiplatform, moslty because it expands the potential market all while developpment costs exploded because processing power exploded (no point in having a PS3 if you still use PS2 style graphics). Yet, I've also seen Steam appearing out of nowhere, first as the exclusive mean to play Half Life 2, then Valve games, then third-party game and then virtually every PC game. A trove of indie games also appeared, mostly thank to Steam and mostly exclusively sold by some form of paying download. Read a few articles on http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/, you won't see that many AAA games, but a treasure trove of indie games and stuff you've never heard about.

Now, let's go back to your initial topic. I think game developpers are rather conservative people when it comes to technical developpments. A simple thing that is putting games on DVD took ages after every single decent gaming-rig had DVD player. There is still virtually not a game made to use the 64 bits part of the x86-64 CPUs that are sold in most PC since about 2005-2006. I've yet to see a major game requiring Windows Vista or Windows 7 to run, that is, using only DirectX 10 or 11. It will be 5 years since Vista and DirectX 10 have been released.
As you've said it yourself, the world of portable devices is still in flux and virtually no one can predict whether Google, Apple, Microsoft or even maybe RIM will end up dominating it. Or if it'll end up rather well shared, each one of the top 3 players having about a third of the slice. Or maybe that will not matter anymore because everything will be processed in huge datacenters and you'll only need to have the relevant client and a decent latency to play your games. So how would a developper commit a significant amount of ressources on such a moving and unpredictable target?
What's more, how do you handle the flood of apps, games in the Apple Store? How do you ensure that your games gets sufficient coverage among the next big Instagram version, the NYTimes fancy app for the 2012 US Elections or what happens if Apple rejects the app for some unfathomable motive? Is Bethesda psychollogically ready to sell their games in the 2-5$ bracket? Have you counted how many developpers actually ended up making significant amounts of money from the Apple Store? That's not to say it is impossible, but I think it is not such an obvious move yet.
I've already said I think it'll happen sooner or later. However, given the tremendous sales enjoyed so far in mostly dying and soon-to-be eaten by mobile devices platforms, I don't think they're in such a rush. I wouldn't be surprised to see Virt2L producing iOS and Android (yes, Android, yes, even in Java, because, no, it doesn't necessarily harm performance http://www.jgoodies.com/) Elder Scrolls games in the future. And then and only then, they'll have to deal with the fact that mobile devices will likely still be less powerful than consoles and gaming PC.

Don't worry about Bethesda, they know probably much more than me or you what's good for them and how to deal with those matters. After all, that's their work and if they can't do it, they disappear or be eaten by someone who can.

You didn't address the point. The point is, as far as we can tell, you're falling into the hype of this device. It is NEW technology that is JUST GETTING STARTED. Posts #9 and #12 do not address that this device is the best thing since sliced bread- instead it's merely stating that it is capable of playing "serious" games.

Also, plenty of things look *great* in market test trials or early on, only to provide dissapointment later. New Coke did exceedingly well in market tests, and based on that info, Coke would've been stupid *not* to have changed the formula. When they did, it was a complete flop, causing them to switch back to the classic formula within THREE MONTHS. How about the Tamogatchi craze here in the US?

Where you argue that these devices are raking in more gamers than anything else, you failed to provide anything to support it, especially considering you did provide info that showed that PC gaming was "dying" (and disproven by the above poster in his own supporting links.) You also failed to provide links to prove that everything was programmed in Java, instead only pointing people back to posts #9 and #12, neither of which give supporting links.

You are not reading my comments, just skimming them. Perhaps you don't understand some terms. Give some of the statements some thought, as it would answer your questions before you even ask them.

On Java, I mention it has inherent problems the prevent it from being a hardcoe 3d platform. Minecraft is kids play. I can do that in Visual Basic and it would run great. It is just a 3D viewer. You can do that in Flash. Even for such a simple 3D display it even has problems in java. Here, since you are not reading what I am saying, I'll provide what others say...

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/59700-massive-temoprary-slow-down/
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/3024-why-is-minecraft-so-slow-on-my-computer/
http://www.thisweekinlinux.com/forum/index.php?topic=402.0
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120106225744AA77YZR
http://getsatisfaction.com/mojang/topics/solutions_to_common_minecraft_problems

There are TONS of links. Just search for it.

If Bethesda knew what they were doing, don't you think the bugs and slowdown in Skyrim and Fallout would be fixed? As far as we know fallout is still not fixed. (check the forums).
If it is not an interpreted language, they really need quality assurance or good programmers. I am not worried that bethesda don't know what to do (that is their problem), I am just commenting that a lot of developers are stuck because the OS provider forces the developers on a platform. If the studios make bad decisions they can always learn from their lesson. But OS providers, once they start massing up number of device owners, it becomes a major problem. Just like Android, you can't code without Java parts, it becomes a problem. You might say... who cares let them fail... but without competition, from Samsung and Android, Apple may become lazy like Microsoft and start dumping .NET on the masses, or even worse, for people to use .NET like on XBox360 indie developers (XNA).

Even now there are companies forcing people to only code in HTML5 apps on mobile devices. Heard of WebOS? Yep, it is gone. While iOS is getting better and better hardcoe 3d games like Infinity Blade, Android will be stuck with angry birds like games for the rest of its lifetime. Why? The interpreted language requirement. Yes, you will get some developers who code in JNI for a few devices, but read my Post #9 again. No studio is going to spend 80% of their time porting their code to every single device. It is the OS developer's job. Why don't you guys just download the NDK from android and go try to make a program in C? Then come back and tell me how horrible the Android Java problem is.


As for games on mobile... Do you know how many iPhones get sold every month? It exceeds the population of PC platform. And the difference between iPhone and PC? You are carrying the device all the time, while the PC you may only be in front of it a few hours a day. Now on the topic of Starcraft 2. that is a good example of a hardcoe 3D game. If it was programmed in Java, it won't see the light of day. It can probably run on iPad 2 if they wanted. (actually they will probably make more sales on iPad 2 if they released it on that platform). But it is the studio's decision so their problem. It would only be a problem if one day Apple forces interpreted language (or HTML5) on all iPad app developers. Then it becomes a global problem.


As for the pricing of games. I think free to play is a good model. Why? It provides software to the masses to enjoy. If they want perks let them pay for it. Why do you not want to pay when you use the street? Did you build it? There are certain things that should be free in life. Food will be free eventually. Also, certain populations in the world are not able to enjoy certain technologies because of the ratio between how much they work, and what they can get/buy. Many people in China or Africa would probably have to work their whole life just to be able to afford a computer, let alone the operating system. While someone like in the US or UK just needs to work less than a month.

Since I'm lazy atm, I'm going to make this short. These are problems with having big games like skyrim on a handheld:
Battery - heavy programs svcks way more power than the lightweight ones. Skyrim is by no mean a lightweight program.
CPU - they're relatively weak compared to what you get in a PC. And, did I mention the graphics card?
Heat - huge workloads over time causes great heat. Phones and small handhelds won't handle that, due to the limited space.
Controls - they're quite limited.
Performance - phones/handhelds are extremely weak compared to a computer.
Portability - it's not as easy as you think.

To port a game to another platform, you have to ensure that the API and system calls are available. For windows, bethesda uses DirectX as their 3d api. Since the xBox is a Microsoft console, they've made it easier to develop for both by sharing lots of api's. For the PS3, they have to switch over to OpenGL for rendering, since DirectX doesn't exist. There is also lots of other functions/system calls that doesn't exist. Which means, that if you develop for PC/xBox, it should be fairly easy to port from one to the other. Switching from DirectX to OpenGL results in lots of code needing to be rewritten, and optimized. Since it's rewritten, it has to be tested again.

To OP: It's much, much, much, much more complicated than you think. It's not something that's done in a day or two, we're talking 6 months+ for a full team. Then comes testing and bugfixing. Any script language (aka interpreted programming language), is way slower than what it'd be if you used a language that compiles binaries, not zipping them into a package. And before you make another post like this, think a bit about what you actually know so that you don't give the moderators more work. The more reason for flaming there is, the more work it becomes for the moderators. Also, it sounds like you're not into the technical details, more like 5 minutes on google....

Then do so. Make a game comparable in size and gameplay to Minecraft.

"Any script language (aka interpreted programming language), is way slower than what it'd be if you used a language that compiles binaries, not zipping them into a package. " Well, if you want to talk technical, lets get into this statement. You are saying an interpreted language that runs on a virtual machine would be faster than a language that can be compiled into native code.



Lets say there is a script language like so:
loop 10 times.
increase x by 1
end loop..







if you are running a virtual machine, that statement above would be compiled to bytecode. Then the virtual machine would be running on the cpu, which would then go through the bytecode one by one and determine what to do. (a fake cpu.

If you are able to compile the above script into native code, then it becomes equivalent to assembly code. There is no more "compile stage". This is not java hot spot compiling (look it up). This is pre execution compiling. Any token can be matched directly to appropriate c or assembly before runtime. If you are referring to compiling it once, then no need to compile anymore after second run even if in a virtual machine, you still have the virtual machine that is running on the CPU. No code is hitting the cpu directly, but going through a fake cpu. When I am referring to scripting, I am referring generically to scripting engines like javascript. Java and .net and python have virtual machines. I am inquiring whether Skyrim uses a scripting engine that can be compiled to binary beforehand, or whether it uses a language that is compiled to bytecode, then interpreted using a fake cpu (virtual machine). There is a difference. Also, no one is flaming. The only person who is flaming is Odd Elf. And no, I didn't fall into his flaming fest. The rest are in civil discourse. You seem to want to bring moderators into this. Why? Unless you wish the topic at discussion stopped. No one is flaming anyone here. I already answered your other question about mobility in #9 and #12. Have you seen Uncharted: Golden Abyss? Looks like to me it can handle skyrim just fine. As for Minecraft, it has already been ported to iPhone (running natively in C). I am just saying via my statement that that game does not require a heavy processor to do it (like on PC), and can run anywhere. It runs in Java because it is pretty light in requirements. The original poster was trying to point out either that java can do hardcoe 3d, or that only PC can handle games like it. I was not trying to brag or anything. I was indicating you can do Minecraft using other languages as well, like Visual Basic, and it would run faster. And no, I don't google 5 minutes. I google everyday. But that has no bearing on my experiences on this topic.

The reason I mentioned the moderators isn't that I want this thread to be closed (I actually want this to stay open), it is only because I got a feeling (don't know why I got that feeling) that this might burst out and give the moderators a headache, and thereby get the thread closed.

From the original post, I got the impression that you had litte/zero knowledge about it, but now it doesn't seem to be the case. Sorry about that.

I've been programming for a few years (university) plus a little hobby programming, so I know the basics. I have no idea about the iPhone, nor am I interested in it. However, I did note that android is made for java, and therefore java code executes FAST. On other platforms? Well...

they wont put big elder scrolls games on mobile devices, they might do another elder scorlls adventures or mobile version. but honestly the mobile devices dont have the power or the success for it to be worth their while. if anything was even remotly true about what you said on mobile gamming taking over(which is just insane) then all the game companies would be flocking to nintindo for the ds. you may not like that but its the console thats successfull in mobile gaming and nintindo has always dominated this area. and iphones and psps overheat playing simple games and you want to put a full elder scrolls game into one??? i think youll be going through a lot of phones and psps before you figure out its not going to work