Most bandits don't level past level 4.

Skyrim doesn't level EVERYTHING with you like Oblivion did. Some things are at least level 20 (giants), other things are at best level 4 (skeevers, common bandits). Sabrecats and bears ARE very dangerous, they start at 12 or so i believe.

Skyrim does have world levelling but it's much better done here than in Oblivion, with creatures and npc's having level ranges instead of levels.

Out of curiousity, how can you check what level are your enemies' skills?
Anyway, it's not like you desribe it. You're still a mediocre fighter, but the time you spent advancing non-combat skills was the time your enemies devoted to polishing their archery/blade skills and/or aquiring better armor. It's not the logic of numbers, it's the logic of roleplay. If you can train and get better, so can everybody else. Too bad you got better at blacksmithing while they got better at fighting.

I had no trouble running around in full Deadric armor and weapons at level 22(did not work on enchanting) and it's still not an issue even at level 30 except you can die against magic users if you mess up. And if the game didnt scale at all it would have been even easier, If anything the game is actually easier if you pickup smithing.

Overall Skyrim is much better for level scaling compared to oblivion.

Sure, this is what Oblivion was like, but Skyrim isn't. Not completely at least.
There are a lot of areas where you will still encounter the same weak enemies as when you were level 1. I'm level 20 and still encounter lot's of wolves, low-level draugr and low-level human enemies. It does get significantly more dangerous once you reach higher-level areas, though.
I'm not completely sure how it works, but my guess is that you are generally safer if you stay close to towns, don't travel high into the mountains and keep closer to the starting areas. Also the main quest seems to use a somewhat different degree of leveling.

Did we really need another one of these threads?

Because the logic of roleplay is that if I spend a week learning cooking, everyone in the world has become a proficient fighter and trolls have mutated into a different race ?

Why is it that so many people who mock others about "common sense" and "logic" show such a startling total lack of what they preach ?

While I partially agree with OP, but you sound kinda ridiculous complaining about being killed by everything when you leveled both enchanting and blacksmithing to 100.

Here's the spoiler on how you can get fine equipment now without killing anything, and even without spending any gold (if you decide to go for ebony instead of daedric).

Perhaps if you did roleplay a master chef, you wouldn't attempt to fight trolls and fighters? Theres your common sense and logic if you really wish.

No, the game is not designed for non-combat roleplay archetypes, combat is a central feature to the game. I think there are only really 2 totally non-combat skills, being pickpocket and speech.

Everything else can be used. If you truly have roleplayed an alchemist, then said alchemist, should, in theory be able to craft potions that increase his health, stamina, poisons, skill potions, and thats what they focus on in combat. If you base a character on being an alchemist, but can't be fussed about spending 90% of your time collecting ingredients and making potions, then you probably chose the wrong character to play. If you are a master blacksmith, then the level of items you can create should seriously compensate for the lack of skill... same goes with enchanting.

There are also difficulty levels, if you levelled up speech, pickpocket and nothing else, there is really no shame, none at all in dropping difficulty to rock bottom. The game is there to play your character in, you aren't in competition with anyone.

From what I can see however, is that there are plenty of people who can teach you how to make a blacksmith into a seasoned dragonkiller with only minimum of skills.

Thanks for illustrating the very post you answered to.
Let me repeat it :

"Why is it that so many people who mock others about "common sense" and "logic" show such a startling total lack of what they preach ?"

I don't see why a fighter couldn't also learn how to cook. I know I didn't forget my martial arts knowledge when I learnt coding, and I'm pretty sure not everyone became a black belt in the meantime either.

Don't talk about common sense and logic if you're going to say "hey you learnt cooking, so everyone has become a better fighter in the meantime, IT'S JUST LOGICAL MAN !".

My story short:
Dunmer, lvl 24
Light armour, rating ~90 (elven gilded armour)
dual wield, one handed weapon damage shown in the inventory ~50

To kill Markarth city guard I need 4-5 DUAL POWER STIRKES (playing Expert diff) while he owns me in 2-3 hits :/ Same goes for bandits, most of the time.
Not to metion sabre tigers which flatten me with their first charge. Seeing one I have my elven armour full... and its really hard to run having armour... full.

I've been playing RPGs for a long time now and I say something's not right. At least with the guards and bandits

The logic of roleplay is that if you spend a week learning cooking, you still don't know the first thing about killing trolls, therefore you svck at it.

I have to agree with whoever it was that wrote about Bethesda sending the wrong signals. Maybe if we hadn't been told that we can be "whoever we want to be", people wouldn't complain about broken level scaling.

@edit
Okay, now let's stop talking about cooking. Cooking is not an actual skill. Let's take alchemy. You level up, trolls become stronger, your fighing abilities become relatively weaker, but in return you can mix potions that will help you defeat said trolls. You win the fight.
That's how it's supposed to work, at least in theory. If it doesn't - e.g. couple of levels in alchemy don't make such a great difference in potion strength, but enemies are noticeably more powerful - then something's wrong with the balancing of combat and non-combat skills. But NOTHING'S wrong with the concept of leveling by both combat and non-combat skill advancemenets. The idea is right. The implementation might not be. But I don't really think it is, since everybody is talking about how blacksmithing and enchanting can be terribly OP when used correctly. Which leaves only Pickpocket, Lockpicking and Speech as the truly non-combat abilites.

People on forums are notorious for being followers of forum 'advice' or trying to give bad advice. basically 2 groups. And ironically the former generally becomes the latter. As in, they read something that looks cool, they try it, it doesnt work, and then they become an 'expert'.

My first guy was a mess. I leveled speech to make a lot of money fast. I perked out restoration and had quick hands slotted instead of a shield. I ignored all but a couple things in combat. I think I put maybe 2 points in one handed and a couple points in armor. I was level 27 or so and it was still not that bad. But then I got to Daedric Armor and it changed everything, even without many perks t o armor. So it went from being a slight challenge to not being a challenge at all. I played that guy another 5 or 6 levels, mostly gotten through enchanting and alchemy, and when I enchanted my gear with modest enchants it got even easier. I had to reload 3 or 4 times with a frost dragon at level 25 or 26. I met another one around level 34 with the better armor and a few enchants and the fight was a joke it was so easy.

My 'build' was obviously nothing any normal person would be using. But tit worked once I got some decent armor. My combat stuff was still mostly unimproved, but I could take a lot more damage with what I was wearing, and my heal was decent enough and the magicka use was low enough I could spam it, and by then I didnt even have to use pots.

I think if guys are having problems they are min/maxing stuff, not spreading out points as they level and looking for that 'uber' final build. Which by the time you get to it the game is over. Or if you have it the game is simply to easy mode to play at all. And more than likely these guys are getting builds off forums or wikis somewhere instead of making their own decisions. Or they tried their own way, didnt like it and tried someone elses and it was worse, and therefore the game is 'broken'.

But here is what I have done on two toons. I gain a few levels, level up perks associated with their race and what style I want to play with them. Then I get to level 5 or 8 and simply dont/didnt advance anymore levels, mostly to buy skill training, then when I get 5/5 I level up, I went so long on this last guy when I finalt leveled up I went from 5 to 8, then when I bought the 5/5 I went into level 9 and bought again. Thats is maybe another area people are finding troublesome, Theyre leveling too fast because theyre buying skill points. Same as with crafting. You level up a couple times just making 40 daggers.

I havent played a pure caster yet so cant comment on that, but that is my next go around, and after that a leather wearing thief. So I basically started with a 'balanced' guy and have since gone to a more focused path, and I really havent seen much difference. The points I left out of speech and restoration and put into combat and defensive perks arent game changing in any way. And my second guy is already up to level 20, so not really all that far from level 27 when I was seeing small issues with my fist guy.

Let me repeat myself :

"I don't see why a fighter couldn't also learn how to cook. I know I didn't forget my martial arts knowledge when I learnt coding, and I'm pretty sure not everyone became a black belt in the meantime either."


Where is the logical link between "I level up" and "trolls become stronger" ?
I fail to see any logical link between those events.
If it's a game, i can play too ?
"The logic of roleplay is that if you eat strawberries, then days become shorter". I hence suppose that Bethesda should shorten the day duration each time I eat strawberries.

I think lots of people have problems with this leveling system because the game is too open for them.

The way I see it, game developer / modder gas only three possibilities to design the levelling system:
1. Most other RPGs are strictly story driven and base NPC levels on story progression. You can only advance in your level playing the story so no problems there. Mobs get stronger as you get stronger, the game is a constant challenge and everyone is happy. But you can only visit areas you've already been to through story advancement (if at all).
2. Skyrim leveling on the other hand is designed so that the game playes a challenge on your character no matter where you are and what you have been doing lately. Because at any moment you can be *anywhere* on the map and could have been leveling or just exploring. This is absolutely necessary to make all areas of the map accessible at any time as well as make them an appropriate challenge.
3. The last option to do otherwise would be to simply pre-place the NPCs of fixed levels. This would also effectively (or programmatically) restrict map access since you would get killed pretty much the moment you entered an area that is too high level for your character. This method would also be fine and you would still have limited access to these areas if you trained your athletics and acrobatics that were available in previous TES games (so that you could absolutely outrun the insanely strong monsters there). AFAIK Skyrim even uses this system for some dungeons, but not for open terrain.

So as others have said: due to leveling system Skyrim employs, you can't really expect your character to beat a professional thug if all you are is a master smith...
Or put another way: say the thugs remained fixed level while you were leveling your smithing. So you train yourself to god level and then go do carnage all over the place. But since you enter the game a total new player, what level should the imperial soldiers be at the beginning? Something matching your level or something way stronger that you can't hope to defeat yet? What would be the point of game leveling then if first you needed to level some offensive / defensive skills to tackle even an over aggressive rat? Wouldn't you find that boring? Alternatively, if NPCs started your new player level, the moment you levelled even a bit, you would be massacring them. If this is what you are after, just type tgm in the console.

:celebration:

You win this thread!

The logic is that the game tries to act as a game master trying to keep the game challenging and fun. I'm at level 31 on highest difficulty and usually I kick butt but there are also a bunch of fights I have to run away from. But now the beauty is that I actually CAN run away and get away.

As long as I keep a decent focus on my combat/survival skills, and have someone with me to take some of the pounding (when we get cornered with no escape), even highest difficulty becomes a bit too easy where I don't need to use all my tricks to stay alive. However, that is with archery, sneak, smithing, and heavy armor (not planned, just kinda happened ) - maybe certain combos become too powerful? Also, I'm mostly doing exploration, I think I've only done 10 quests or so by now (including side quests).

A big part of roleplaying is knowing when to make a run for it, accepting your defeat.

Really...this level scaling argument is getting old. People wanted something close to Morrowind and that's what they got (they did throw some Fallout 3 aspects in there, though). Take Morrowind for instance. My first character was basically an alchemist/enchanter. I used magic sometimes. I also used melee combat sometimes as well. But being an adventuerer, most of my level was done through running and jumping around. Sneaking was also part of my characters get-up. Eventually, Ogrims and such started to show up...and you'll never guess what happened. They got ahold of me and beat my ass. My melee skills were poor. My armor skills were poor. My point? You level up non combat skills, you're gonna level up (just like Morrowind...which seems to be the benchmark)...and draw higher level enemiesa and, most likely get owned.

With Skyrim, when you level up, regular bandits do NOT level up. They stay level 1. Instead they draw higher level bandits from the same subtype. SO bandit outlaws/highwaymen etc etc will start to appear. But regular bandits will still be there. They are still there and I'm level 32. Just like Morrowind...You see Ogrims mixed with rats, diseased rats and kwama and diseased kwama. What I have learned is combat is unavoidable in a TES game, and as you level, try to keep you combat skills up. Otherwise, expect to have a hard time when it comes to combat.

Nice thing about Morrowind is, you can still catch up on that training you missed in the Ascadian Isles and other regions whose leveled lists don't go too far beyound level 10.
Not really possible in Skyrim. Yes, the region around Riverwood eventually becomes infested with frost trolls, Helgen draws bandits, etc.

I don't see that. I'm level 32 hoping to run into trolls. Instead, I'm one hitting (no I dodn't do the blacksmithing/enchanting thing) level 1 or 6 bandits. Of course these guys are near towns. The further out I bump into these trolls and such, but never have I bumped frost trolls... at riverwood. 80 hours in never seen it. I went back to the first area to test this level scaling theroy about 10 mins ago anyway. The bandits in the tower near the dungeon where you get the golden claw...I killed those guys at level 1. Seeing as they are outside, they should be badass bandits owning me with ebony weapons (some people on these boards there's leveled loot) and I would have a hard time. On master difficutly, First creature I see...is a "Bandit", not a frost troll, not the highest level bandit you would see in that subtype. He dies in one hit (irons arrows, some hide armor and a few coins. So much for that ebony).

Now, I go to a place where I struggle to get to...and this bandit camp draws up bandit mauraders. Now this area, an area that is infested with high level monsters...drew up the highest level bandit in the bandit camp. But the funny thing was, there was still a level 1 in that camp. How come around bleakfall barrows, the place where I'm supposed to see frost trolls by now (btw...nothing but wolves and mudcrabs with the occasion bandit btw) drew up level 1-6 bandits...but the harder area (which was clear it was supposed to be) drew up the higher level monsters?

While being near your level (35 rather than 32, but shouldn't make much of a difference), a frost troll attacked me between Riverwood and that bandit tower. Yes, it was on the way from Riverwood to Bleak Falls Barrow. Yes, the usual way, no ninja shortcut (not that I know of any).
The tower itself has easy bandits. Bleak Falls Barrow (the exterior), I think, had some higher-leveled ones (highwaymen? I don't really remember). None as difficult as the frost troll, though. Makes me wonder how they got past the troll...
Not that the troll himself was any problem for me. But had I misskilled, he would have been one.

As far as "one-hitting" is concerned, I am not sure whether you mean actually killing in one hit because your hits take their whole health, or killing in one hit because that hit happens to be a finisher (the game likes this for some reason). I still can't one-hit most bandit outlaws (the second-easiest tier of bandit) in the "honest" way, by taking away all of their health; but one-hitting by finishers happens a lot.

EDIT: Fasttraveleed to Bleak Falls Barrow again, went down to Riverwood. A new frost troll.