Of course it has. And Tide detergent is New and Improved!

It's PR - they're never going to say anything other than whatever it is the professionals decide the customers want to hear. The truth is always subservient to marketing strategy.

What does that have to do with anything I said though. That's what I'm asking :pinch: The "control" was about perks.
Now about attributes. Intelligence determined magicka use but so did raising your skills (and much more so in fact). As for encumberance and magicka regen, none of us know how that will be working. Luck might be gone or just a flat rate for everyone but frankly who cares about luck. Speed was always abused, as was athletics and acrobatics. Personality was THE MOST USELESS SKILL ATTRIBUTE EVER!

Endurance was health and stamina. Strength gave a meh bonus to damage and now all the damage is in the skill and perks.

You know increasing the actual skill makes you do more damage right? For example higher blade skill means higher damage with blade. Maybe now only your skill affects how much damage you do? :shrug:

Oh how convenient. The fact of the matter is it's a bladed object, the only skill to it is successfully hitting your target. That's why the most effective swords in the past have been once that novices can wield, and can be used in such a way that they can cut around armor. A blade is a blade, it doesn't matter if a blademaster stabs a guy in the heart, if a total novice stabs a guy in the heart just as hard, it's going to be just as lethal.

The difference here is that cutting through armor with a blade is very difficult, and it relies greatly on how hard you hit the armor, obviously strength plays into how hard you can swing an object.

Tell that to a white belt fighting a black belt....

The point is more that if you have two same level Nords, the first with 50 in a Sword and no other skills related to physical power vs. one with 50 in a Sword and 50 in some other skill that's strength-related, the second Nord, due to the strength building of the two skills, should do more damage than the first one. Having an attribute, Strength, reflects that spillover from two skills only related in requiring physical power. Unless there's some way for skills that would have been related by attribute if there were still attributes to improve each other, you've just lost a great deal of flexibility in making a unique character. -_-'

(Again, this could be extended away from Sword to any number of RPG actions. ^^)

Edit: Ooops. Forgot to mention that the difference between the Nord and the Breton should also be bigger even with the same skills, simply due to the fact that one is supposed to be physically stronger than the other!

Assuming the things they said are true, which is most likely , it seems the game will be more complex. This is not really related to PR...

Right but an elf with a 60 blade skill should not do the same damage as an orc with a 60 blade skill.

Sigh...now exactly how hard is it to come up with something like THIS when you have Hundreds of employees working on a game for 5 years, HOW?

I don't want to see some stupidity (and I ask how is this anyless spreadsheety) that is a perk saying +5 to attack damage or +1 to stamina :eek: or weapon properties that should already be native to the game and not require perks to enable them, serious mace needs a perk to ignore armor? a Mace should already do that save for heavy armored foes > the mace's attack strenght + the players strenght, but nooooo.

Slowing down time perks for arrows is a step in the right direction, but it should be something learned and uncovered, not "I press this perk" bewm I can now slow down time because I picked this perk out of nowhere.

Did you read (takes breath) my reply to your reply to my first post. Nothing proves dumbing down. We have to wait and see, but there is always the chance that the perk system makes the game and your character progression more interesting, with choices you make being meaningful. I do not see how 18 skills you can tailor to your envisaged build is dumber compared to 21 or 27 skills that only increase in value, the same way for every character.

Certain races have certain traits...so perhaps Orcs will always have an extra boost to damage, even if you can't see it in stats :shrug:

P.S: Seriously though I'm not worried at all. I'm sure whatever Beth does will be the best choice. If they removed attributes it's because they will properly replace their functions and IMO it seems the whole perk system will work much better than previous sytems with attributes.

remember when you played morrowind and restarted your character to fight rats joining the fighters guild....then you played oblivion and what you thought was the same old thing but turned out to be something different...i can't wait to see what these minds have done to us now...i have faith in them totally and can't wait to play

Why not? Maybe the elf has a better fulcrum point due to his anatomy that allows for better leverage.

Yes it should. You know why? Because in Oblivion/Morrowind the Elf and the Orc both could cap their Str at 100 anyway destroying any difference between the two races, and at that point the Elf with 60 would do the exact same damage than the Orc with 60.

Because the elf starts with a lower skill level in Blade than the Orc and so the elf at 60 blade means he actually put MORE effort into training his blade skill than the orc to get where he is so the extra effort he did explains why he now is as proficient in blades than the Orc.

First off, look at how strong and fit your average black belt is. You don't become a black belt by being a frail-boned, noodle-armed pansy.

Second, you average bloated-ego blackbelt carrying a weapon is not going to stand a chance against a Leviathan carrying an equal weapon, no matter how many jackie chan movies tell you otherwise.


Person A has 50 blunt strength but is very weak

Person B has a blunt strength of 50 also, but he is almost super-humanly strong


Who is going to strike harder with their weapon?




I agree. I've been in favor of race multipliers from the start, so an orc would always be stronger than a wood elf even if both were at 100 strength. That would eliminate this issue.

I don't understand why people are so worried about losing Attributes. The Attributes were a huge problem in Oblivion, they were going to be in Skyrim but they made the decision that it's not going to work hence the perk system. Attributes shouldn't govern skills that was the main problem. Why should I get a penalty if I want Sneak and Marksman as a major or Block, Heavy Armor, Armorer, or Blade and Blunt. Simplified isn't the correct word, the correct word is change, changing something that is flawed or has flaws and replacing it with something that is better. I'm glad every skill is a major skill as now I can use the skills I want without worrying about my character or his/her skills being catagorizing into a class. We have more freedom in how we develop our character. Magic spells are optional, using a Blade is optional. We can still choose how we develop our character BGS hasn't screwed us over in that department.

As a warrior, how now would I increase an attribute to make me more resistent to magic attacks? With the willpower attribute non-exsistent, I would need to increase the "mana" attribute to do this now? Thanks, now I have more mana that I do not use..

It is.

Here's how you'd do it in Oblivion


Oh wait ...

Well though luck, try some Magicka Resistance gear/potion then.

Frankly, being resistant to magic attacks shouldn't happen and now without willpower, it seems like we won't be. Also, it was Willpower, not Wisdom.

I was very upset when I found out attributes were removed.....and I DO think that this is simplifying an aspect just for the sake of simplifying it. There were a lot better ways to fix the issues of the attributes system than to delete it all together in my opinion.

Now when you level up you apply points to health, stamina, and magicka? Eeesh. That sounds like Joe EveryRPG more than ES if you ask me. And removing Acrobatics/Athletics and simply calling making them 'Stamina' was a poor choice also. I am very intersted to see in detail how the new level system works, because from what Ive seen so far its proving to be a bit of a dissapointment.

What if TES: VI simply removed ALL skills and made them Strength/Health, Magic, or Stamina related instead of the actual skill itself? Id be devastated. You no longer improve your sword skill, but instead you add points to strength. You no longer improve destruction, just add points to magic. Dont improve acrobatics, simply throw some points on Stamina. That is how I feel when it comes to removing attributes, combining multiple skills, and simply removing other skills all together. It is simplification, but for what reason and at what cost? Well, that has yet to be revealed.

Dont get me wrong, Im sure Skyrim will still be my favorite game of all time, just like the two previous ES games. But so far Skyrim is just changing the mold into something thats starting to not even be reminiscent of an ES game, or at least what I know an ES game to be.

By your narrow view point slide rules are superior to calculators because calculators are dumbed down. This is the absurdity of your position. I can't think of a madern scientist that would think a slide rule is supperior to a calculator just because the calculator simplified the way we do calculations which goes to my original post on the thread too many people equate streamling things a simplification and too many people equate simple to equal bad. Well Some times simple is FAR FAR FAR better than complex. Sometimes you can streamline a system so it is not ONLY more efficent but can also actually do more because it is streamlines and thus be similar to use but obtain far more complex results, case in point a calculator.

I would say that the attribute system was bad not because it was complex but because you had to do thing that were deliberatley counter intuitive to get teh best results. In fact this went against the corner stone of improve as you do. As pointed out anyone who was a warrior who wanted to use heavy armour, repair armour and block was better off place some or all over those skills as non major skills to get the best attribute results for endurance. That means the system was flawed as you should have been a MORE effective warrior with those as major skills not less.

I see no dumbing down of the system. i see them dropping the skill attribute relationship for a skill perk relationship that has far more complex interdependencies (if fallout can be used as a rough guide) than the skill attribute system had. All that has happened is that they have streamlined the number of skills. What the skills governed is still availible for the player. Via perks and what the attributes governed is also going to be there as well via perks. I fail to see how increased intterdependencies equates to things beibng dumbed down.

but there are no more... attributes, not even strength...just health, Stamina and Magicka...

bwhahaha there are so many sixy users on this thread atm.

You are right, about willpower. I was typing to fast and steaming while I was typing...

Unfortunately to most people improving something means it needs to be changed radically or removed completely rather than refined.



Different subject. I hope that orcs, nords and the "large frame" races will get melee damage bonuses or weight encumbrance bonuses. Just to imply and recognize that they are indeed larger and stronger.