Actually the loss of skills has been going on since before Morrowind and in reality, Morrowind removed the most skills of all. More than were removed with Oblivion and Skyrim combine in fact. Uh oh, Morrowind is a terrible game because skills were cut....

As for more character variety, Skyrim has exponentially more character variety than Morrowind and Skyrim has 3 "less" skills.



I hear people tell of these issues all the time but I've never had the game crash on the pc and on the 360 it only crashed when you turned on the HD switch and that was just because the 360 couldn't handle the stress.

Quite Frank Im not sure why many are so surprised, we figured this to be the case in the first onsets of information released for Skyrim 4 months ago, it was a fear and now it is fact and I can't see why people are saying.


Axing attributes/Lowering skills/and basing everything on perks which completely detach reasoning for learning a skill or gaining ability through gameplay dynamically not choosing some perk is better than

Keeping Attributes, Making them more involved in Characters, attribute gain and styles being varied among races, Skills being better with Attributes and supplementing other skills + a Perk system that supplements everything but is gained over the course of your play dynamically depending on your playstyle.

Except I've yet to see any detachment from reasoning for learning a skill caused by the removal of worthless skills. If you could give an example for us to discuss that would be very helpful.

I'm not surprised and I welcome the change. Misrepresenting it doesn't help your argument either. It doesn't detach reasoning at all. The perks are trees based on the skills you are leveling.

If anything the perks make it more complicated. It doesn't simplify anything at all.

If, upon leaving the game prologue (prisoner escapes) and we have no perks means both Mr. Terror who is going to use the sword and Mitzy the Barmaid who has never held one are just as smart s each other, just as agile, just as intelligent, etc. I'm not saying the same result cannot be reached but it is painting people with the exact same brush leaving out all sense. A line from the Incredibles went like - if everone is exceptional - no one is. One cannot play as an einstein who learns magic as einstein doesn't exist - hes just as smart as theguy in the next cell who was the garbage collector in town and was thrown in prison because he stole something.

I agree I love having more options. Having perks should make for some more interesting characters and not the 100 attribute 100 skill god characters from Oblivion.

It sounds like its simplified more than I want it to be.

But I have to play it first to know for sure.

It does seem like there will be a higher opportunity cost for things like jumping far. Whether it is done well or not we wont know and will probably depend on the person. Some say good hard choices are awesome. And yeah hard choices are good, but we don't know if they will be hard choices or false choices. If you need to pick effective perks to effectively adventure, the fluff perks aren't hard choices they are false choices because you really can't take them. This might be especially true at lower levels, you get 1 perk a level so at what point can you break free of the I need useful perks chain to take jump really far perk. While jumping far might be an important part of your character, being decent with a bow might be more important so you might be forced to wait till level 20 before you can even look at fluff perks and you still might be gimping yourself hard to take them. Those aren't good hard choices.

This is what I don't get, where are you guys getting this line of thought? You don't have signs and the attributes have been condensed into their rightful spots, that's it. That's the only difference. You still have racials, skills and perks. Not everyone is painted with the same brush, your getting tunnel visioned in the view of the new game and only seeing removal but not taking into account the rest of the game and what it's adding and how it will influence your character.

I agree that the way the system is we won't have a starting bonus in certain stuff although the different races may but where we end up eventually will be completely different. Terror could be the greatest warrior but the Barmaid could be a deadly assassin that slices peoples throats before they realize what's happened. Terror may or may not be able to do that.

That's the thing that this game will still have even with the changes of getting rid of Attributes. The ability to have your character develop the way that you want to develop them. You want to be a deadly assassin you can, you want to be a Warrior that makes trolls run in fear you can. Freedom is probably the biggest thing that the Elder Scrolls has. Perks may or may not add more freedom we will see in the upcoming months.

Why aren't they good hard choices?? If you want to go jumping around as high as you like, by all means do it, but don't expect to suddenly be good at other things because you focused on jumping over what you actually need to survive. :shrug:

skyrim=80%-fallout 3, 20%-oblivion. fallout 3 was really simple but it worked really well, so hopefully this game will too.

Some characters rely on jumping to survive.

People playing halo?

Or Donkey Kong

It's more like Skyrim is 80% Oblivion and 20% Fallout 3.

Or Acrobats, or thieves etc. etc.

But there was never any point in Oblivion where you needed to jump to survive. The only place in the entire game you need to jump was during the Heist and you had the Boots of Springheel Jack.

You may have never needed it, but I get everything out of my TES, apparantly you dont? Many of times my thief escaped certain death by traversing the rooftops of the various cities. it kept my Acrobat from certain death at the hands of an Ogre I simply flipped over. I could go on. You dont have to play an ES game linear. Some characters do no quests. Have their own quests and priorities.

its because they have already set in their minds that change is wrong. they will claim to want innovation but in practise what they want is really just what has gone before with additions. They can't get past that a skill perk system will be different from a skill attribute system and haven't bothered to ask what advantages are gained by the system. they instead focus only on the negative. Nothing we can say will change their minds all we can do is show bethesda that many other people like their direction, so that bethesda sees that their fans don't all hate the system.

Eh, we'll kind of have to wait for the game to come out to even begin to judge that. We're seeing the tip of iceberg, as it were.

yea if you divide 80% by 4, and then add 20 to the 20% and multiply it by 2.

on this i agree. yet i do not beleive that just because they removed the acrobatics skill that they removed the ability to jump or the ability to improve your improve your jumping abilities. The same effects player want that were handled by skills or attributes are not handled by perks. it not liek you lost the ability to jump like your thief, now you just need to select a perk or a series of perks.

Bethesda.

I take back all that I said about Optional Relationships, fine; I can't do everything.
I take back all that I said about having fire,ice,shock,poison dragons, fine; Dunmers have the advantage with the fire dragons.


But bring back the attributes. You can marginalize them and call them 'minor' attributes and keep HP,Mana,Stamina as major ones. Let me just add 1 point to either agility, endurance, speed, willpower, strength or intelligence per level. Even make it so that I need to level 10 times picking strength to even make it raise a full point.

I agree that all Nords are created equal. But if my Nord worked out once a week for 10 years, he would probably swing his sword 1 damage point harder then the same Nord with equal sword skill points and health points at the same level.

Perks can create a lot of customization. But removing stats, and reducing skills, and removing spellmaking limit their ability to do so. Personally, when Todd talks about how everything was superflulous, I just hear, "There are only 3 archetypes, pick one"