I know the history of this series first hand, from having played it from the time when Daggerfall was new, and the Beth tradition is not simply to "start anew" with each installment, but to, with each installment, remove content, remove complexity, remove conflict, remove choices and remove consequences. Each installment has been, in all ways excepting graphics and arguably combat, more bland, more linear, more simplistic and ultimately less rewarding to those who wish to be challenged by games.

Not that I particularly blame Beth... well - I blame them exclusively, but I understand it. They have just as much need, for the same reasons, to aim directly for the lowest common denominator as McDonalds does. I just hate to see it happen.

he quite clearly has a point. i dont get why people want this out so badly? how else are you giong to get better at jumping? An NBA player jumps more times then i have in oblivion and they wouldnt be able to jump as high if they didnt. Bethesda had it right, now their getting rid of it. some stupid perk is going to determine how high i can jump now.. or who knows they may have eliminated jump progression all together....and this sprint button? i like to feel like ive done something or made progression and you take that away by doing this. Alot of people enjoyed going out and swimming JUST to raise their athletics and now this is gone.. all these changes are clearly a case of simplifying.. it just doesnt make sense. its not elderscrolls to me

SO is this saying that a level 20 character who obtains 50 skill points in sword will hit an NPC with the same damage as any other level 20 character who has 50 skill points in sword?

Because if sword skill points are the only thing that determine damage to an NPC because they removed "strength" attribute, then this would be dissapointing.

I understand taking out Acrobatics and maybe even athletics... But strenght, intelligence, wisdom ??

thats fine, I am all for that. but it doesn't justify the removal of the attributes system which we know works (if any one couldn't figure the system out it was because of user error not a flaw in the system) we could still have all these perks while improving the attributes system. instead they have put in a lot of effort to make a system that does what attributes did but minus the attributes, is illogical.

We had NO control before, now we have total control over perks. I'm just against keeping a system that doesn't work just because it was in previous games. Nostalgia gets in the way of progress and this progress is for the better.

I disagree I think the series have gotten better over the last couple games. Oblivion had it's flaws some minor, some very hairpulling. Skyrim should fix the flaws that Oblivion had and I don't think that the series has gotten more bland or linear. Now that we've gotten the perk system we have more choices and we no longer have to worry about oh I shouldn't raise my blade because I'll level up too fast or I'm too worried that I'll get above 10 and then my Strength stat is useless. Major skills should be skills that you want to use not skills that you don't use until you get the +5 from minor skills.

we had control on how hard we hit something with stength attribute right?

wait and see if it's better or worse once you see more of it in action and in more detail, badmouthing changes from the start don't help when trying to look at the issue with a neutral point of view.

that's my policy and i'm sticking to it.

So far every bit of information we've been given has implied that this is the most complex game Bethesda has ever made.

I can see travel skills like Athletics and Acrobatics folded into perks in the Armor skill trees, or into the Stamina attribute, or simply based on character race. I agree it would be a big oversight if they just made jumping height and distance static across all characters. Boring and bland in a game that seems so much more focused on specialization than previous TES.

Not only could it be folded into the Stamina attribute itself, but it would be great if they based run speed and jumping ability on how much Stamina the character has left. The more tired you are, the slower you'll move, and different armor weights could slow movement and drain stamina faster (so a perk which reduces the weight or movement penalties of armor would make you run faster, jump higher, etc.) That way a stealthy character (presumably the ones who want to jump high) specialized into Light armor and with high stamina would run and jump much better than a warrior wearing Heavy armor but mostly ignoring its perks, or even a mage wearing nothing but specializing into nothing but magic.

the complexity of morrowind is what made me love the game.. It really felt like i was in control of my character.. that feeling was slightly dwindled with Oblivion and it looks to me like it will be dwindled even more with Skyrim. what GPSTR said makes complete sense and i guess theres nothing i can do about it because im not the target audience

That's not disappointing, that's exactly the point! You got a skill used to measure the player proficiency in certain activities, why muddle the value of that measure by adding random modifiers from all other the place? Worse, you improve Blade which improves Str which improves Blade skill. Wtf, why make it convoluted like that?

Why should a Nord with 50 in Sword be better with Swords that a Breton with 50 in Sword skill? They got the exact same skill level so they SHOULD be as good with it than each other.

And that's literally the ENTIRE POINT of removing things and changing things. You're getting what you want and complaining about it.

There's an easy fix for this to suit everyone I think. They haven't said it yet, but basically just have a perk tree for each of the three remaining attributes. Perks would cover jumping, speed, agility and dodging etc. Magicka as a whole, its regeneration, etc. etc. etc. and have it all governed by these things when you do them, allowing them to level up similar to Skills.

What? I don't get what you mean by that statement :pinch:

I agree totally. We'll just have to see how Bethsda implements them. Lets hope their perks are better than Oblivion or Fallout 3's.

I dont think you really know much about the previous games? cause the info weve got so far proves that things are being dumbed down and mashed together to create an easier experience less hassel more streamlined and straight forward.. that will appeal to the general population that want a brainless experience. gone are the days of a bit of work to make you appreciate what you have achieved.

I disagree. Having to make hard choice in character development means you choices are more impactful. If you don't sacrifice anything to add flavour to your character then that flavour is at best a thinvanier that really doesn't make your character different or special. yet if you have to sacrifice to make that character different from other characters then that character is more than just the same old same old with a different coat of paint.

The substance of your character and the frivilous aspects of your character should be the result of meaningful choices. In the confines of character construction only...

If you construct your character to be the most efficent they can possibly be then it doesn't matter that they have frivilous persk A. B and C, instead of fivilous perks X,Y and Z. You character will still be the most efficent character possible with just insignificant superficial changes.

There is nothing wrong with taking the most efficent possible approach to a character but regardles how you may try to dress it up to make it appear different it really isn't different. For a character to truely be differnt from this character construction it needs to be less efficent. Which is why you should have to make hard choices when you pick perks otherwise the choice have no meaning.

This post is a perfect example of something that is simple, but not in the least bit dumbed down for it.

I think removing the attributes is a big mistake. The use of attributes instead of just having skills is that you have a pool of ability that contributes to ALL related things. For example, if you have a high strength you can still take that club you have no training in and bash someone for more damage than someone weaker than you. If you just use skills, it doesn't matter how high your Sword and Smithing skills get... your club won't do more damage as a reflection of the raw strength you've gained thanks to those other skills. It's easy to extend this to pretty much every action in an RPG.

There's a reason RPGs have attributes and skills. Unless they let skills have spillover effects to actions connected to related but different skills (and thus mimic the effects of having attributes via those skills), they've seriously hampered flexibility in character development.

Still... we won't know exactly how they compensate for the loss of attributes until we get the game into our grubby little paws, so...

Agree, all the characters in Oblivion at High Levels were the same 100 attribute 100 skills warrior god. Now we only have 100 skills but not able to get every perk meaning choices should matter more this time around.

It doesn't matter how graceful you are with a sword, if one guy is larger and stronger then he's going to hit harder, regardless of his technique.\

The whole idea of more damage for more skill points is stupid anyways, and was only introduced in Oblivion. Skill with a weapon should define how likely you are to attack around a block, or to successfully parry your opponent or break through their armor. Skills shouldn't define raw damage it should define your accuracy

Strength determine how much you can do a particular task, like carry heavy equipment or damage you do with weapons. Intelligence/Wisdom determine magic use.

So now we only have health, mana, and stamina as attributes?

So now I have to increase my health "attribute" do do more damage with a melee weapon?

Blade Skill is not technique. It's a summary of everything that governs sword skill in a way you can use to compare effectively two different persons and say : this one is the best sword user of the two just by noticing which one has a higher skill level.

I disagree. The game is more user friendly for sure but it's not dumbed down (which is a terrible expression might I say ). Besides how is less hassle worst? It means less trouble!