In Oblivion, you'd walk into the Imperial City and see tons of random, useless, listless doe-eyed people moving about without any sense of purpose, few goals, often repeating the same dialogue over and over again as if they were only there to provide audio queues, which basically they were. If you think about city dwellers as just vessels to distribute random tidbits of useless info to the player ad naseum, than that's what you will end up with. But I'd like to challenge Bethesda to find some ways prior to release to create more atmosphere by evoking civilization in all of its terrible ugliness and all of its glory, too.

Here are a few of the ideas I have for how to do that:

1. SPEECHES - One guy could be standing in the middle of some roundabout or square, giving a speech. Dozens of other people could be standing around listening, but not only listening, being actively engaged in that speech. It could be a debate about the civil war raging in Skyrim, and best how to solve Skyrim's political problems, and how the dragons' return has impacted all of Skyrim's dealing. People want to know what changes are to be expected. As he gives his speech, occasionaly, a member of the crowd will interrupt and throw a new question at him. If the player (you) try to interfere, most of the people will be too busy paying attention to the speech and just shoo you off. But maybe 1-2 people will be there who can give you some backstory as to what is happening. If you talk with them, their voice is louder, but behind them, the debate will continue slightly quieter, so you can hear both voice streams at work, creating a real-time event with real-time interaction. A speech given in a town is rare, and no one town will hold more than one speech a month unless its the player's first few times visiting the town. Each speech is unique and egocentric to that town's personality, fears, and needs. The speech has a real beginning, and a real end, where the people finally all get disbanded so that they should return to their duties. Seeing the people actually debating, taking part in politics, asking questions, all without your direct intervention, making YOU the background and not relevant to them, would go a loooong way in making Skyrim feel more real, like it's not all about YOU. Like you're there, but not the center of attention for once. They wouldn't even have to give out quests for this. And if you stayed for the whole debate, you would learn a lot about the history of Skyrim, local politics, the fears of the people, etc ... it's like LORE without the boring and quiet reading of books (unless they've revamped that system in Skyrim, I don't know) ... The gathering of the people for these kinds of events, the interaction of the public with a leader, and the subsquent disbanding, would provide quite a glimpse into city dynamics we've never seen before. I would love it, personally.

2. GRIEVANCES - Some people could be camped outside of local government office buildings complaining about issues regarding the city's handling of certain affairs. There could be people complaining about sewage problems, or the overtaxation problem, or crying because there is some rule declaring that Argonians and Bretons can't legally get married. They could be carrying poorly-painted signs decrying the situation with a catchy slogan, and they may try to entice the player to join their cause, take a walk with them. There could be some kind of city police "raiding" system to raid these gatherings and arrest key members, dispersing the crowd. Or they may have a representative of the ruling elite come out and pacify the audience with a demonstration of understanding for their greivance and a call for all citizens to disband and return home.

3. SUPPLY RUNNING - When I visited Venice in 1992, I noticed how so many young people in that city had jobs running wheelbarrows of supplies all over the city. They had wheelbarrows of fresh fish, with ice poured over them, and they were running them through the narrow streets to shops further inside. Other people were wheeling barrels and were busy working very hard to secure items. It'd be cool if they could work in these kinds of jobs, some kind of moving or dragging animations, or show wheelbarrows being used... then they could show the city unloading supplies, and moving them all over the city. A person with a wheelbarrow or whatever the system should best be for a Nordic environment like Skyrim's, would help create the illusion of a bustling city hard at work, to better replace the lazy, malandering gait of those random passersby in Oblivion's capital city that all seemed to have no purpose beyond wandering about, randomly repeating questions and factoids between each other.

4. BRAWLS - In modern society it's a crime to punch someone, but back in those kind of settings, violence erupting at any moment was a way of life. You never see two NPC's bump into each other and then go about talking sh** with each other before throwing down. It'd be nice if, instead of every citizen greeting each other in that overly friendly dreamlike trance, if they were like real men, a bit gruff, a bit easily offended, ready to prove their stuff. I know we have duels in, but what I am asking for is some of the negative interactions that happen BEFORE it comes to the duels at all. Or you're walking by a market and someone is suddenly very pissed they couldn't get the price they wanted, and knock the basket of fruit all over the street and march off in total huff. That's normal. That's what you expect to see in a harsh city environment built around strength and violence as was in the Nordic days. Oblivion's overly gentle and baby-ish conversational dialogue was too perfect, where was the grit? I think Skyrim needs this kind of grit to really set the mood. I'd love to hear someone suddenly shouting about something that really pisses them off, and then they go storming away. Or you enter a bar and two men are already throwing down, nearly killing you even as you've barely cleared the door yourself. Or someone didn't like the product they just bought (make some "snake oil" they were sold, and now they want their "god-da**ed money back!" or all Hell is coming!)

Those are what I've got for now. Let's hear some of your own suggestions, if any. Thanks!

Check out Two Worlds 2 cities. They do actually feel like a living city. Merchants and beggars. Lots of people going about their daily business, who get quite aggravated with you if you bump into them while running. People are shopping at the merchants, etc.
Even though you can't talk to very many of them it does make it feel like a vibrant city, It feels much more like a city than Oblivion did when there are maybe a handful of people visible at any given time.

I just want the crowds of people in cities, not friggin 15 useless NPC's in one city district with a rumor option.

I suggested crowds not too long ago in the forums and some actually liked the named useless NPC's in cities. According to them they added "depth" to the game when they really didn't.

Crowds but no Dialog......hmm tough choice....if that is so (which was stated non essential npc's wont have dialog trees) then what would be the point of the old morrowind past time of wiping out entire towns? especially when now not only do guards respawn, but people too >_>

I'd love to see more people going to and fro on the bridges in the air above buildings, as if people actually visited and used the 3D portions of the city, not just the ground floor. So you'd be walking through town and see the shadows of people above you stretched out on the ground below you and feel the life all around you, in 3D, and not just in front or behind you. Some of these cities have a lot of higher levels and ramparts, and such. Why not have a few people standing there watching you from above? Be kind of creepy but cool.

It'd be cool if there were some outdoor training classes, either weapon's training, dance classes, where many people were moving in synchronization with each other as they practiced their art. And the leader would walk up and down their ranks praising and admonishing them, depending on their skill and attention to detail.

Sounds a lot like the cities from assassin's creed. which were awesome.

i dont mind having crowds i cant speak to but I'd like to be able to speak to notables like town cryers, shop keepers, guards, beggars and other people that may give me pertinent info. in addition you can over hear conversations between people and pick up info that way (which oblivion had)

I really cant make up my mind on this... The thing is, take Assassins Creed for example. The cities look good, people react to you and there are many crowds etc but there isn't the depth of gameplay when you cant interact using any dialogue. That suits Assassins Creed because you are supposed to go un-noticed. ES is better because you can talk to anyone and everyone... Ok so many wont have a lot to say and say the same as each other which i think needs to be improved. A balance needs to be found somewhere...

I like the idea of the Supply Runners: I heard there will be people carrying things through town. Carrying fits Skyrim better than wheel barrows as the Nords are a proud and strong race and also Skyrim is a rough place where wheelbarrows wouldn't always be able to travel on the paths from town to the work areas like the mines, wood mills and other things that have been officially mentioned.

Welll, it's not a question of "either/or" if that's what you mean. You still have all the other normal TES-game interactions, but you just add these on top of the existing system, randomly peppered throughout the game, perhaps more toward the beginning of the game where the player is becoming familiar with the system. Bethesda could include an "off switch" in the Character Generation so that if you've already run through the game a number of times and don't want to see the crowds debating (in the speeches) the same things again, those aspects could be turned off. But some of the things, like brawls and supply running could be kept in, I would imagine. I guess the easiest way would be to include these AI systems as seperate mods from the main .ESM file, so you could just turn them off before starting your new character.

I think those speeches would be a lot of fun the first time through, for those of us who prefer to get their history lessons orally rather than by reading in a book. And no, it's not because I'm stupid, I'm an English major, but I don't always like the writing style of those people writing in the Elder Scrolls books. I think the writers of those books aren't very engaging for the most part, and I quickly lose interest in reading their literature. Just my opinion. So I would prefer these kinds of social interactions involving speeches or debates in the streets, just like the oratories of those demigogues who made the debates of Greece so engaging!

I love all of those ideas! The speechs and the crowds would make things feel so real.

I'd also like soldiers recruiting random people, armageddon obsessed people yelling about how the dragons are the sign of the apocalypse, people protesting the war, and people in markets running up to you and pressuring you to buy something from their stall... badass.

OMG, "armageddon obsessed people yelling about how the dragons are the sign of the apocalypse" .... that's so hilarious and awesome. I want that! I think it's too funny for them to actually do it, but damn it, that is awesome. Maybe there is a quest could do to arrest these lunatics and put them away, so you wouldn't have to hear them more than once, maybe they're only in one town. Or maybe your quest requires you to bring them with you to kill a dragon in front of them. Whereupon they go back to town and start yelling that the "Dragonborn is a sign of the coming of the end! I have seen the killing of dragons with my own eyes, and I assure you the Hellspawn that did it is surely more dangerous than ALL the dragons! The end has come!" :rofl:

Ubisoft and some of the guys from the Assassin's Creed team gave a presentation in San Francisco like 2 days ago about how to do this, and considering AC Brotherhood did this the best of any game out yet they're probably the ones to listen to.

I like your ideas OP they all sound great, and I would love to see them implemented in Skyrim.


You could have alot of the poeple doing work respond with a "Im to busy to talk" kind of thing. Or give a lot of the people, rumors, who are you, what do you do around here. I think this would be fine, especialy since most people you talk to arn't gonna have a lot to talk about with a complete stranger.

So we're talking cutting edge theories in game design here, then? I hadn't realized. I didn't think it would be THAT difficult. Well, I don't suppose we'll see any of this in this game, then. It would require too much work, and would have had to be implemented years ago for it to be polished by now.

Maybe somebody can Mod stuff like this into the game? Some of it anyway. I doubt they could Mod the wheelbarrows hauling supplies around the town in full view of your character. That would take a lot of programming, I think. But the speeches could be a standalone Mod, I think. The Brawls could be a standalone Mod, I would assume. But I think Bethesda may have already (I hope), or even COULD, put something like that in with no troubles. It's just as easy to put in these angry NPC's bickering with each other (which is more believable for Skyrim) then it would be to put in their Oblivion-style usual "gentle strangers meeting on the streets to talk about local politics with the softspoken mannerly ways of a homely gang of doe-eyed choirgirls."

Skyrim needs more of a manly bent to it, maintaining the feel of a rugged Empire in the state of chaos upon the return of dragons and the verge of civil war. It's like the Nordic-style "old west" feeling... I hope they concentrate on providing that feeling.