TY, downloaded and looking at it and looks good, not sure I agree with all but basically it look good.

Main problem in previous games was that I ended up with too much health, as your health gain was determined by your endurance and this increased during the game it became so high nothing could realistically kill you, Found that the best solution was to keep my endurance low. This and the ability to get more than the 250-300 in magic pool without enchantments attracted me to the new system.

Right, but compared to Oblivion you could mod in a countless number of responses and dialogue choices. Add in some creative scripting (here, non-modder perspective) and may be you can get a system that will generate some general responses based on your skills, attributes, class specialization, etc.



Sure, but that can both ways really. Voice acting may sound better on paper but that doesn't actually make it better. Even in mods with excellent voice acting I often just find myself reading the subtitles faster and in-character for that matter so voice acting, for me, just takes up space.

IMO it's not streamlining what Bethesda is doing with Skyrim.


first they took away lots of the world wide known rpg elements like statics
there are no attributes or classes like in other games, now is that streamlining.....I think it's just a fancy word you guys found and wanted to use it.
Unscripted dragon AI, also not streamlining.
No fighting from a horse, not streamlining.
Little to none cutscenes -II-.
Fast travel -II-.
etc.

Core fans are divided on what changes they support and what changes they don't. I would also categorize Bethesda's development team as core fans. There are good gameplay reasons for any change. The "doing it only for the money" argument is but a disingeneous method for disgruntled players to dismiss valid reasons for change and to present themselves as wronged.

Thing is though is that quite a bit of the changes are either invalid, unwanted, or entirely unwarranted.

1. Racial bonuses. Some may be innate, some may be training according to culture. Either way, not a know nothing peasant. I would assume an Altmer farmhand does not get +10 destruction.
2. and OT, damn sight bolder move than making Morroblivion, Morrowind 2, or Oblivion 2, regardless of whether you like the changes or not.

But an Altmer farmhand would naturally have that 10 point bonus, having an inherent affinity for it like every other Altmer. Inherent traits =/= skills.



This argument is old and stupid. No one is arguing for them to just take Morrowind or Oblivion and give it new graphics. We're arguing about things that have been removed entirely that shouldn't have. Extreme example, but I dare you to defend Bethesda if they would have made Skyrim into an FPS COD clone going "Derp, welps, its their game derp and its Skyrim! derp lets ignore the past derp!"

To put it another way, you don't move forward by ignoring your past.

:thumbsup:

My thoughts EXACTLY. Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind all catered to the RPG player. Oblivion catered to the person who doesn't play RPG's. Skyrim will be the same, based on what we know so far.

All the thinking has been removed, all the exploration has been removed. most of the Role Playing aspects have been removed. All there is now is start the game, level up and pick some perks and follow the GPS compass from point A to point B while nearby objects are marked on your map when you aren't even looking for them. Beat down enemies and beasts and dragons and use the standard spells give to you, forget making your own.

It's gone from RPG to interactive story telling.

Yes it would be stupid, it would damage rating and sale, however like the things the guys in [censored] does it would be bold

The industry is very competetiv and though. If they want to stay alive and continue to make games, they must earn money. By making the game simplier and easier to grasp they appeal to a larger crowd and which will ead to bigger revenue. Today few real rpg exist simpliy because the market demands games that almost everyone can play, rpgs dont appeal to soo many people, not enough to actually make a living from it. The old-school rpg you want is dead.

You do have a way with responding to half a sentence, '..regardless of whether you like the changes or not.' It isn't an old or stupid argument, it is a reply to the first posts OP. They could have sat on their laurels, with pretty much guaranteed sales, but haven't, for good or for ill. They are trying something new, that's not a defense, that's a statement of fact. And really, no one is asking for Morrowind with new graphics? How many times have I seen
"Like Morrowind"

"This"

"This"

Here is a question. Who here knows, for an absolute certainty, without a doubt, that the team said "let's streamline the game. Let's look at Oblivion and see which skills we can remove."
Could possibly be that they said " Let's start from scratch, let's come up with a whole new game. Which skills are necessary."

They already appeal to a massive, massive crowd. First you have their core base of fans that were hooked from Arena and Daggerfall, then you have the new fans that came along with Morrowind, then you have the MASSIVE amount of people that got hooked on the series with Oblivion. There is no need to appeal to a larger crowd than that and for what its worth Skyrim is going to attract so many more people regardless of whether its old school or this new school derp fest its turning into.

There would be a market for an old-school RPG if there was a quality one and it was marketed properly. I don't buy the notion that an old-school RPG can't work. It can.

"If you build it, they will come". Borrowed from a movie, but the same thing applies to games. "If you build it, they will play it"..... if it's quality.

Bethesda can do quality, I've seen it. They just need to embrace it again.

Remember that each game cost more than the previous one.Therefore appealing to larger crowds is necessary. the fanbase must keep one growing if the the elder scrolls serie wants to survive and continue improving/growing.

Those costs are rising because they're constantly appealing to a larger crowd that they don't need.

And just lol at "improving".

Precisely. A well known dev like BGS would be laughed out of E3 if the graphics weren't noticeably shinier than OB's, and that takes time and money. They are making a triple A role player, not the easiest thing to do. And amongst the 'where's the old school rpg posts', there are plenty already pulling every detail of the graphics apart. You can't please everybody.

Oh no how terrible! :facepalm:

Terrible indeed when those laughetrs end up making the game a complete failure because no one wants to play a game with outdated graphics.

One question? Did any reviewer clamed Morrowind was to complex? Was this an common complain?
How about the most complex feature in Morrowind, first you do is to cut it?

The only complain regarding complexity was that some locations was hard to find, mostly the puzzle box.
This together with a wish for voice acting and roaming npc resulted in the quest compass.
Another thing complained about especially after some years was the animations and combat, the result was Oblivion combat system and the lack of spears.
Lack of high level content and a wish to do quests in any order resulted in the level scaling, a serious bad idea however it made the game harder at high levels.

Now to the complex, hard to understand and nerdy things, Spell making: Pretty unchanged, some spells removed from spell maker. This was mostly done for balance reasons, enchanting was nerfed significantly, however the possibly even more nerdy thing alchemy was seriously expanded.
I do not see much dumbing here except the quest compass. Perhaps also the lack of level requirement for quests.

I'm sure thats why 50,000 people can be seen playing Diablo 2 virtually every day.

Well, yeah, it would be. Not for you, or me, but for the company. Bad publicity can hurt sales. You may think they will get enough sales anyway if they make the game exactly as you want, but you haven't paid the developers wages for the last five years.

Yeah, but I did pay significant portion of it when I gifted several copies of Arena and Daggerfall way back when Bethesda wasn't riding the "derp, lets make it simple and pretty derp" train.

As I said, Bethesda's fan base and the people Skyrim (as in, Skyrim the Advertisemant, not Skyrim the game) is going to attract will be more than enough to cover Beth's budget (you can argue profit, but that should be more than covered) no matter what they peddle out. There's no reason to keep simplifying the games and its not only an insult to its core fans but also to the people they're trying to attract with simplicity. They aren't stupid and if the game is good they'll get into it. Or they won't. Good riddance for them as far as I or anyone else should be concerned.

Would they paly the game if it was released today? Most likely no.





Yes, the changes are not always big. Still the overall game did become simplier with oblivion. Did it get worse? That is a matter of opinion. What is fact is taht oblivion was a greater sucess than Morrowind. The reasons behind this great sucess are not possible to know. I guess, guess as I dont really know nor do anyone else, the bigger advertisment campaign by bethesda along with shinier graphic and fasterpaced combat catered to a bigger group of people thus leading to more customers leading to higher profit leading to gretaer sucess.

There is a happy medium where a game can be made for the mainstream, and still have the needed elements for RPers. At least, for me anyway, I guess I can't speak for everyone, but the core issue for me with RPability is believability. Even if something is addressed to a small degree, that is good enough for me, so long as it is addressed, explained, integrated, whatever. The tedium of character sheets and all the other things that are slow, thought involved things in menus really isn't at the core of RP, not in my opinion. For example for this particular thread which is about character gen... as I've said before even though I like RP myself, dropping stats like attributes I think if done right can actually be an improvement or at least no worse for both mainstream and hardcoe players alike... but starting with no direction at all is totally unnecessary to cater to mainstream players now that they are dropping attributes.

Picking a class and all your majors/minors and specialties could serve to put you in a box that could be hard to get out of later, and is boring to non RP/hardcoe players sure... but now that you have developed this more user-friendly and quick system of perks, why not leverage it to still give the beginning of the game one that makes sense, is intuitive and belevable along with real life, so that both the mainstream and RPers are happy? What I mean is, the old style of chargen made you make choices that would still be impacting your capabilities at the same degree they did at the beginning of the game at the end of the game... your majors are still your majors, etc. But with perks, low level perks are more negligible than high level perks, so instead of starting as a really buff but completely stupid and inept moron as an advlt who is a jack of all trades who is completely incompetent at all trades.... why not allow us to picka small number of starting perks? Maybe even just 3-5 1st tier perks.

If you supposedly know where you were "going" to put your perks in the first 3-5 levels anyway, why can't you do it at chargen? They said the levels would go fast anyway, so its not like you are forcing anyone to "think" too much more than they otherwise would have. And if someone really is going to complain that they could have been one perk higher up a different tree after they later decide they would have liked to do their perks differently, tough. They could have run into the same problem if the progression left them deciding it in levels 1-5 instead of at chargen, and your choices are going to have the potential to gimp you even if its streamlined so long as there are choices at all.

This way, you get to actually have your character's background decided, but the perks are such low level things that it doesn't really force you into a "class" any more than picking them as you go does. I think this would make a lot of sense, and dare I say even be enjoyable and painless for the mainstream just as much as the hardcoe RPers.

It was a bigger 'success' compared to Morrowind because it was massively marketed, had some of the best graphics at the time on a console, and was pretty much one of the first games people bought for the Xbox 360. I should know, I was one of those people. :whistling:

But that doesn't make it a better game and virtually everyone should know by now that if Morrowind was better graphically Oblivion wouldn't even be able to compare.



Yes, actually, they would, because there are new players coming to it all the time.

You can make a game look like a turd but if its a good game people will play it. Here I can cite virtually any popular flash game. As well as a lot of Indie games. Mount and Blade Warband for instance. Its graphics capabilies are somewhere between Morrowind and Oblivion and yet more and more people are playing it.

And besides that, if you're one selling point on a game is its graphics, you shouldn't be playing games. Even Crysis has good gameplay despite the fact that it was mostly a tech demo.