Note that most of the graphic is done without increasing system demands significantly. It’s simply more and better animations, more unique dungeons and cities. More armor sets, at least four leather and two iron. More features like npc doing a lot of boring stuff and you can do it to.
Yes we want to cut corners here and the character doing woodcutting does not match in my book.

I agree. I've stated many times in this forum that I predict that Skyrim's Character Build changes are going to end up being a very bad decision by the developer . . . on par with Oblivion's Level Scaling. I just don't get the decision to remove the initial character build (Classes, Birthsigns, and most of the Attributes) and replace it with Perk Bonuses, Fast Leveling, and Birth-stones. I view this a a very poor substitute. Skyrim appears to be focused on fast paced gameplay, at the expense of in-depth gameplay. I'm seriously bummed, and feel that they may have crossed the line in mainstreaming the game . . . at the expense of losing the core TES fans.


Perks are Skill Bonuses, not Attributes. A better initial Character Build could have been easy . . . all Beth had to do was integrate the way they made Fallout 3's SPECIALs work (with some minor modifications) and make that the basis for Classes, and improve the Birthsigns. And they could still have had Perk Skill Bonuses . . . this is my definition of the "best of both worlds."


You were not "forced into a Class" in Oblivion (or in Fallout 3) . . . you never had to take the "assigned" class . . . you could just distribute your own Attribute/Skill points. In OB, we had Major/Minors; in FO3 we had Tagged Skills . . . both are just a representation of the abilities that your character in more proficient at (your innate abilities). In my opinion, a good character build system would result in a player character that always has inherent strengths and weaknesses, which remain through the entire game (instead of being cancelled out when you level up). The problem is that most of the mainstream gamers are against anything that would impose a limit on their character. Remove the character limits and you weaken the RPG.

Yes, Skyrim is not an RPG anymore...

Thinking is removed, it's not like you have to figure out how to defend yourself without a shield, it's not like you have to find good spell combos, it's not like there are no puzzles, it's not like you have to select 50 perks out of 280...
Exploration is removed, it's not like there's a huge open world filled with unique things, it's not like there are several big cities. Oh right, silly me, the 3D map and the quest markers ruin everything. Because it's not like you're already told where to go. Oh and the compass shows the shows points of interest around you, it completely ruins exploration, it's not like you have to GET CLOSE TO IT TO MAKE THEM APPEAR!
Roleplaying is removed, yeah, nobody heard of roleplaying without classes and attributes... Yeah your character is 100% out of your control...

And Bukee misses the point again. :facepalm:

What point?

That "Duurrr, it's not an RPG because they removed something. Now the game has the complexity and depth of a ball :bonk: " complaint that goes around all the time?

I couldn't be happier about the removal of classes. They were one of the most annoying aspects of The Elder Scrolls. I always ended up having to restart the game multiple times because I would never get the major skill choices right. I'm so glad any skill leveling up contributes to you leveling up. I really disliked how only your major skills contributed to leveling. It made leveling up minor skill seem like a pointless waste of time. Perks are going to be deeper than the old class system ever could have hoped to be, and it will be a lot more fun to participate in. I found leveling up in Fallout 3 more fun than in every TES game before it.

THis is essentially a number of my previous posts relevant to the discussion

Bethesda only needs to make a solid game to stay in business. If it lives up to or even better PAST the spirit of its predecessors, the old fans will be happy, and new fans will naturally come into the fold by seeing how attractive it looks. Bringing in new customers is the absolutely worst excuse to make a series "streamlined" and "accessible". Honestly, if this is what the basis of them making a game, then you might as well say that Bethesda should just release smaller TES games every year, with only minor tweaks in between them. That's a strategy that's worked for EA and Activision.

the game does not need to be MOAR accessible....crap Console users aren't idiots, they are more then capable of taking the time to understand what is and what is not in a game. gaining a wider audience = we want to appeal to Casual players you know where the money is, those not interested and just want to jump in and out and call it a day, and of course people interested in something deeper than face value get shafted.

I seriously thought that you could not simplify a game more than Oblivion, damn I was wrong for the second time.


I guess its up till TES 6 for a game that has ease of access or whatever they are selling, while still having sweeping Depth a Tip of the ice berg kind of deal. sorry but with whats been released so far such hope as far as Im concerned is fleeting


I don't need nor want Bethesda to Cater to me, Morrowind was not made for me and Daggerfall was not made for me, When bethesda goes back to just making the game independent of the "we want to make money" AS A DRIVING FORCE then maybe maybe awesomeness will return to brimming naturally without being FORCED in your face every waking second for whats advertised and everything else is sorely lacking, again I said AS A DRIVING FORCE, nothing wrong with making money but when thats the primary reason for making a game...you get garbage, ala EA and Activision.

Modding in classes now is as pointless as it was In previous games, they served as markers and effected the character sure, but they mean little of anything else. unless you dig into RS and make it recognize what class you are and then alter/add a bunch of other factors unique to your classes such as random encounters Faction dispositions and all of that sure, but without a base little can be done initially.


such are the things I speak of when I say improve and fix, I can easily come up with various factors and improvements so why at this point did Beth not?

in b4 not everyone plays the way you want to play of which I retort if I was a Beth Dev Im pretty sure thats not a concern, its my freaking game. so if they are not adding such aspects because they fear alienating people I say shoot full speed ahead, they've already started getitng people uneasy with the changes

Its not about JUST THE PLAYER IN THE GAME, its about the other NPC's being effected by it as well...so saying Mod in Attributes or classes and all that will be all of pointless if it ONLY effects the player. and this applies for EVERYTHING from weapon types, to spells, races dialog, EVERYTHING its not just the player using/being effected by them


Why is it because you are on the Forums you are all of a sudden a Blacksheep of the 5 million copies of Oblivion sold and that for some reason people not on the forums are not as rampant and ridiculous as some put it as the ones on the Forum?.....because you're on the forum you suddenly become a minority? mmmh here I was thinking I actually cared about the game enough to go on its forums...not to mention this is not the only place that has the same concerns/praises as other forums...but what can you do right? for some reason Forum users are special.....in complementary and insulting forms of the word...apparently


The second half of my post was addressing the statement people seem to enjoy making when they do not like the features someone else is talking about or showing concern over its removal or Altering with the statement "Bethesda isn't making the game for you, you're a Minority and Bethesda is a business, they aren't here to cater to you because your on their forums" a statement of which I find purely used to undercut another individual and nothing more as if for some reason because one is on the forums one ceases to think the same way they did when they were not on this forum or on another forum. case and point for some reason if Bob thinks similar to John that x features or in/out good/bad both played the games but didnt go on the forums. if Bob joins to forums he becomes a minority and his opinion is atrocious and game dampning while John is more...attractive?


infact here are some hilarious reasons people use for things lost and why they should stay lost


10. What if I choose X and I find out after an hour that I don't want to be/Have X. I'd have to start all over again, that would be terrible!

9. I never played/used X anyway, so who cares if they are gone!

8. The X's are still there anyway, you just build them as you go! Really, it's not at all different!

7. More choices, more perks! Build them as you go!

6. Beth made the change, it must be a good decision!

5. Every single TES is a new game, you shouldn't expect the same old, same old! Just because one game had X doesn't mean this one should.

4. Did I mention perks? Perks! They will solve everything!

3. Dragons! There are dragons!

2. X are redundant - There is no need to have all of them.

And the number one reason why Beth should eliminate X is.....

1. X are too confusing. With all those differences I needed a spreadsheet to keep track of it all.

Courtesy of Admoni

Like really are you serious? and they are only used when someone doesnt like a feature, its never the case when they -do- like a feature and they serve no purpose but to be an ass and undercut other peoples desires.

Core fans grumbled about issues in Arena and in Daggerfall, and welcomed the changes Morrowind brought. Core fans grumbled about issues in Morrowind, and welcomed the changes Oblivion brought. Core fans are not a communal mind. Each fan has his own likes and dislikes that are not shared by all other core fans.


They attract a larger fan base by addressing the issues of their core fans and by continually looking for new things to do so that their fans and their potential fans don't disinterestedly turn away with an "Oh, more of the same."

When you remove things that are essential to ROLE PLAYING, than YES you have turned it from an RPG to something else.

I'm not saying Oblivion was a bad game, it was a bad RPG. The same with Skyrim. It might not be a bad game, but it's going to be a bad RPG based on what I've seen so far.

After a bit of back and fourth between I and Bukee in the last thread about classes there were some results.

Seems to me the point has changed from whether the change in direction is a bold move from Bethesda, to some believing they have the right to say who is entitled to play which game, in my humble opinion a shocking show of arrogance.

Bethesda have made an unexpected move. Whether that move was in pursuit of profit, which they are entirely entitled to seek, or in the search for a role playing system which has both initial comprehensibility and on-going depth, the simple fact is they are not retreading old ground, and you can welcome the new, or hate the changes, I still maintain starting from the ground up with an established franchise is something to be lauded. Whether you agree with the changes or not is mere opinion, nothing more.

My two cents, they can make a simpler game or a more complicated game, I will see the good and the bad in both. When they stop making the worlds they make, and publish a linear game, that will be when I start to complain, very loudly.

Right so how was that relevant to what I actually said?



This.



I would think most of us are being like we are because we'd rather it didn't reach this point, which we feel is where the series is headed. Quite frankly if they continue to 'streamline' after this game (look! we got rid of even more skills!) then I might just up and lose faith in Bethesda.

I've already felt what its really like to have a developer kill a franchise in the name of 'streamlining' and I'd rather not have that happen again. CNC4 literally murdered the franchise that got me into gaming and I'd rather not lose another of my favorite game franchises to the same thing.

If someone wants to play a "Mainstreamed" game, more power to them. I want Bethesda to go back and make RPG's for RPG players, not RPG's for those who don't like them. That is where all this "Mainstreaming" comes from.

I want an RPG that competes with Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind. Oblivion doesn't come close, I don't think Skyrim will either.

Like what?

If you're honestly incapable of roleplaying without the game telling you what your class is, or how strong you are, then I can't help you...

How do you measure the quality of an RPG anyway?
(and Arena being a good RPG... :lmao: )

Uh, what was the point of that again?

Maybe I just worded it wrong, but what I was trying to say it's that it's two different ways to the exact same end.
Saying how there are no character development at all just because there are no classes or attributes is just ignorant. There is one, but it's a different method.
(I'm not accusing you of saying that though, I'm talking about the more general opinion)

Guess you were the kind of guy that just sat and picked preset classes every time right? Only picked what was already selected for your race and birthsign?



No, its just accepting the truth. There is character development but its incredibly limited. As I said earlier, character development does not just take place during the meat of the game.

Also, a point no ones brought up is the very likely possibility of more and more of the game going for player skill over character skill, which also ruins things. Case in point, lockpicking.

That's your opinion. I would be willing to bet every dollar I have that if put head to head against one and another, with the same graphical quality, Oblivion would outsell Morrowind again. The reason Oblivion outsold Morrowind wasn't just because it was marketed more, it was also because it appealed to a much larger audience as a result of it's improvements that made the game less of a test in patience, making it fun without the hassle, but still keeping it incredibly deep. But the vast majority of Oblivion's player-base was still people who were fans of RPGs before Oblivion. I've tried to get so many people who aren't usually into RPGs to play Oblivion, and Oblivion didn't change their mind. Even with the waypoint telling them what direction to walk in, (which no one's forcing you to use) they still found parts of the game confusing. If Oblivion was actually this hideously streamlined, casual action adventure game like so many people try to say, this would never happen.

Oblivion was still a very core RPG, and anyone who tries to argue against that is just wasting there time. The only people who claim to dislike Oblivion are the people who have this undying love for Morrowind, which is great, but this can cloud their view. Oblivion was a better game than Morrowind in almost every way - better soundtrack, better sound effects, better gameplay, better graphics, larger game world - and I welcomed almost every change that came with it (except for the removal of levitation and the smaller variety of melee/range weapons). Once I had passed the 50 hour mark in Oblivion (now somewhere in the 300s), it honestly became difficult to go back to Morrowind (I've been playing TES games since Daggerfall, so don't try any of that crap).

(FYI, I understand that this is all just my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree)

i see what you did thar :hubbahubba:

In your opinion of course. :confused:

This topic has gotten to the point of being rather silly. If someone out there will have their game experience ruined because of the removal of a few labels here and there, sorry, but it is what it is at this point. Plenty of folks here are looking forward to the increased customization and role playing opportunities the changes in Skyrim are going to bring us.

:facepalm:



:no:

Now that I've had my fun using smilees to respond, I'll actually respond.



Do know that by graphics I was also referring to Oblivions combat system, which pretty much came hand in hand with it. The simpler (and imo, more realistic combat system) was the only thing in Morrowind that near guaranteed to turn a person off from playing the game if they aren't already deadset on playing it.



I never had a hassle in Morrowind and neither did a lot of people. Safe to say if you found Morrowind complicated to deal with (its called a learning curve and idk, actually learning) then really these sorts of games aren't for you anyway. Sure your first characters were likely massive screw ups but thats part of the learning process.



Please stop using the word "labels". We've all been over why that is a false name.



We could've had more. A LOT more. And everyone would've been damned happy with it too.

It seems that a lot of you are just mad that its not Morrowind 2.

Sorry, they are gonna try to make it different. If its not the game you specifically wanted, well, just don't buy it or hang out here.

No, I'm 'mad' that they've removed features that didn't need to be removed. As I said before, I like what they've added. I don't like what they've cut. And just stop with this idiotic argument. It means nothing and makes you look foolish.

im shocked by the little ammount of discussion about greaves being removed.

I see as well and despite the sarcastic approach I have to agree to some extent.


It is on its second topic, perhaps it should have been left at the first, it seems to me it just being dragged out with the OP having to refute or argue every post. It is becoming very repetitive as well.



Using smilies to indicate rude responses does not go down well either.

whining about decisions that won't be changed at this point in development is also foolish, and a lot more pointless.

Wouldn't that make me actually miss the classes?

But it primarily take place during the game with or without classes, in every other game too, not just in RPGs.

How would the lack of classes limit character development? If anything, classes restrict it

No matter in what game you play, Morrowind, Oblivion, or anything else, at the beginning you're underdeveloped, you start out at level 1, you barely know what end of sword is sharp. You complained how you cannot start out as a knight. You couldn't before either, at most just as a squire, who just learned the basics, you'll only become a fully fledged knight or whatever you want during the game.

As for player skill over character skill, it was always about a balance between the two. If there's a minigame skill should still matter, it should help you out or the lack of it would make it completely impossible...
And please, no random numbers...