NOTE: If you are not going to actually respond to something in this topic, then PLEASE do not post. THANK YOU.


OP v



Now my response to a post I wasn't able to respond to in the last topic:



I shouldn't have to. Hence the point in having options. So that someone doesn't have to come up with an excuse as to why they are being forced in some arbitrary situation, and can instead come up with a reason for taking whatever path they choose to take, including the prison option. Something like how DAO handled character beginnings but much more freeform and in-line with TES.



Sure, but that shouldn't be the only start. Not everyone should have to start out as peasant know-nothing. In fallout that worked somewhat because we were with our character from birth to being let loose and we chose our tag skills as we went through the beginning of the game. And even if they do the same thing for Skyrim, which I don't think is likely, there is still the fact that we will still be peasant know nothings regardless.

Not that that option is terrible but there should be a choice.



I have no idea what you said here nor how was it was even relevant.



And? That is the problem exactly. That it was removed from character generation. I'm not going just go "oh well okay! derp" just because NPC's still have "classes"



Which shouldn't even be there.



Justification is irrelevant. The point is having the choice in where you start your game. Not being forced into a single arbitrary situation and then forced to come up for an excuse why our characters ended up there. There should be many options, as I came up with earlier, and why my character goes by that route I can come up with.



That isn't a head start. A head start boosts you up before you're even participating in the actual meat of the game. And this doesn't even take into account the roleplaying options lost entirely.

The game will be better than Oblivion, as it fixes its biggest flaws.


GG.

Is there really a point to this thread, or do you have some dying obligation to make a rebuttal?

The former doesn't necessarily follow from the latter. You can say that Oblivion fixed Morrowind's flaws, such as horrible directions to locations, lacking combat, and feeling overpowered when at a high level. Problem is, some of said "fixes" weren't very good, such as, rather than fixing the problem of bad directions by giving good directions instead, they threw out giving directions altogether and added in a magical omniscient compass marker that tells you not only where to find the cave where that item you need to fetch is, but exactly where in the cave your goal is, or how they "fixed" being godlike at a high level by adding level scaling and handing out Daedric armor to every bandit once you reached level 25 (the level scaling also has the pretty hilarious side effect of making you godlike at a low level rather than at a high level; go try playing through the main quest at level 1, you'll see what I mean).

Its polite to respond to the people who were talking to you. And besides that, theres still very much to discuss. You may not think so, but I'm not asking you post here nor even come into this topic. So don't spam it please.

Oh, pardon me. Forgive me for intruding on your beating of the dead horse. Please carry on.

its a forum, responding to something is not impolite. this doesn't look like spam either.

ok. so have roleplaying options disappeared?...we dont know that yet. the removal of classes is meant to keep you from locking yourself up early on and adapting to your character AS YOU PLAY. not during character creation. this should be something you already know about your character the moment you start playing. you may not be a mage in name but in your actions you will reflect that. and the role playing immersion kicks in when you are credited and recognized for your talents. so for me, what it will come down to is HOW NPC react to your characters skills. will they give you a nickname or call you by the name of a previous tes game archetype? will NPC be known as that archetype? if the npc and not the player can be known as a mage then i would agree that that is a fundamental flaw.

Yes. Character development does not just occur during the game.

hello, have you ever played a tes game in your life? it doesn't happen in this series, with the exception of being able to WRITE about your backstory [pre] character development was really up to you to imagine. if you mean having bonus's or weakness's in the char-gen that is an issue of specialization, which i said before, is something you should already know about your character.
the issue is with the specialization as you progress in the game. being recognized for your abilities is the key to weather this new system actually works.

I don't see this so called "Bold direction"
Profitable direction? Definitely.

Catering to your core fans and ignoring mainstream gaming is bold, catering to everyone for the sake of more money isn't.

Yes. Very extensively. The fact that I keep an external harddrive for my characters (the vast majority of which are all interconnected, either by blood or by adventure) should be evidence of that. Kind of why I'm peeved about removal of the ability to define my character at all points of the game. Not just the middle and end.

I'm arguing for the best of both systems, not either or. So don't think I'm entirely trashing Skyrim's system. I like what its doing. (I know you didn't really go here but I think its a good idea to establish this now, so you know)



Obviously, but they removed the one thing that actually reflected what we imagined. The game might try and recognize me by my actions, but that would be kind of broken if I'm just playing a mercenary that doesn't do anything necessarily evil and people start calling me a knight.

Obviously having the game recognize any class the character can come up with is a problem what with the whole 100% voice acting thing, but honestly I always thought that was a stupid way to go anyway. I hardly ever listened to people talk except when I was taking it extremely slow. And even then. I read the subtitles faster than they could talk.



Right, and the game doesn't reflect them anymore.



And I like that. But as I said before, I like the idea of being able to define my character at all times. Both before I start my character, while I'm going through character creation, while I'm playing the game, and right up to the moment I click "Exit to Main Menu". Doesn't really facilitate good roleplaying if every character starts out as 'Peasant #12424', no matter how specialized they can get one level in.

I just played Fallout New Vegas, no classes like in Fallout 3, however I think I noticed a character development in both however I might be misinformed, please enlighten me.

i understand. i know your not trashing it,
but like i said, we DONT know yet if this completely REMOVES these options, or if they were even that important to begin with. nobody ever recognized you for what you were, the only real reminder of that was in the menu.
and as far voice over text, i understand, it wasn't a smooth transition from morrowind to oblivion mainly because a budget for voice over in a game of this scale will ultimately limit dialogue options. and having annoying conversations and titles are a regular part of tes, another tradition eh outlander? hero of kvatch? nwah?

the ultimate point here: if you have to have your hand held the whole time just to know what kind of character your playing your not really playing that role, your letting the game guide you into that role.
the real issue is when you never really become that role or are not recognized for your substantial abilitys.

In those games you didn't start out as a know-nothing peasant.

talking about knowing the role you play vs being told what role you play. both before and during your playthrough. fallout nv has a set character background with a little bit of intrigue so its not completely comparable....i guess you could say the courier job was just some gig you had to make some cash and your background is up to you still, while tes starts you as a prisoner whos past is totally unknown. the removal of classes presents an issue with not having a guide to play who you used to be...if im explaining this right. so if you chose a class thats basicly saying this is what you have experience in during your life before imprisonment.

Which is a problem I would've hoped they would fix, not exacerbate by removing any chance of being recognized not only for what we did but also for who we are. A Knight should warrant different responses to his actions compared to a simple mercenary who did, more or less, the same thing. The class system doesn't solve this by itself, but if we expand character creation to include a general alignment for your character (which should definitely be able to be changed at will or close to it. Not permanent. Same thing with classes) then you have the ability to allow NPC's to recognize for who your character actually is as a person.



Ah, but it isn't so much a problem of needing a crutch in which we can play our characters so much as it is having the ability to further define our character beyond our mere actions within the timespan of the game. Its a matter of in-game legitimacy. Anyone can pick up a sword and shield and start flinging around restoration and destruction magic and call themselves a "Crusader" but ultimately thats all you're doing. Calling yourself a "crusader" when in reality you are only acting like one. Solving this pretty much goes hand in hand with the game recognizing you for your actions, your skills, and for who you are as a person.



Except is is US telling the game the role we want to play. And it us that plays that role. We don't just boot up the game and are then given some arbitrary role. We choose our playstyles and we go forth from that.



Precisely. And even if they try and tell us "Well derp you've been in prison since you were 5" or some such nonsense then it still brings us back to the fact that they are arbitrarily forcing us into a situation that we may or may not have actually ended up in if we had control of our character. Hence me bringing up having many options with which to begin the game in, rather than just the one.

just to get this out there. im not for or against this move. i would have liked the classes AS THEY WERE. but im anxious to try this new system. i may like it i may not. but all the info we have on class removal is too vague for anyone to definitively say that role playing has changed too drastically.

Nice now we are zooming in, during character creation I first selected my attributes, then later I tagged some skills, this boosted them a moderate amount.

Personally I don’t care much about the tagged skills, it was too few to define a character, their main effect was to make me a little better at the start.
Now I dislike the removal of attributes, they helped define a character, I understand they become very little relevant as health and magic is raised during level up but I still think they have a place.
I would like something like New Vegas traits as they have an impact on the character. Here it’s possible to be far more creative, I’m thinking Daggerfall type effects.

can we get a TLDR

Which is stupid, unnatural, and incredibly unrealistic. They seriously should have taken a note out of nGCD's and GCD's book. Those mods made leveling perfect and didn't require removing anything.

if you do a search you will see i made a thread that attempts to reconcile all of our issues with class removal. unfortunately it got buried in the traffic that comes through this site.
basically i was asking the impossible for a future tes game. having a "radiant beginning" for every character. start in the land of your choice with slight decision making prior to actually playing. and through your actions in these tailored starter zones you end up with a class-like title with subtle gameplay effects and is flexible enough to where if you deviate from your archetype you can earn a new title.
but skyrim cant do this. it would take an mmo scale development team and 30 gigs of storage on one disk.
asking the impossible...and maybe removing classes is the better way...for now.

now for the whole "Crusader" problem, thats a personal issue and one that simple titles cant quite fix. your definition of a class is not the same as the developers. so how can this ever be fixed? i got it! lets remove voice acting. all 7000 lines of recorded dialogue XD
so do you see where this is going?

it reminds me of zelda. just makes me remember that this is still a game...
and all of this is unrealistic and unnatural. attributes and leveling and skills. in the end i hope they just get rid of all of the stats and make this closer to a simulator. with very few visual aids, just play and learn by playing.
[no i dont really wish that. maybe another game can do that though...id play it. XD]

Well, thats a little too out there, imo. At least in this day and age anyhow. May be if they wanted to send the series off with a bang, but not for a regular installment. My way (being choose where you start in the province itself) is, I think, better and much much more manageable.



Thats a good thing, really. Morrowind was much for the better not having to rely on having everything voiced over. Made modders jobs 10x easier as well.

well yeah, i said for a future game. with an mmo scale budget.
and alternative start is my favorite mod for many reasons.
but that still doesn't solve the problem here.

i agree but even morrowind was still not a very introspective game. your dialogue choices were never really about you, and you were still told what to say.
voice acting is limited to budget and disk space..which svcks. but good/bad...that's opinion not fact. i happen to like voice acting..i just don't like CRAPPY voice acting or repetitive voice acting.

modders problems are not the problems of the game company or the game as a finished product, modders are essential to me and you, but are a niche audience that is very lucky they have Bethesda's support, saying otherwise is just selfish, if they have issues with getting voice actors then they should make their project more public and petition for help on the nexus. just because its easy doesn't make it right.