Its quests like these that i think adds depth to a game, interesting things to do to get to the quest goal.

Oblivion Quest: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Canvas_the_Castle

If Skyrim had more like these kind of quests, not finding a painting but this way of thinking.

Yes! I remember that one! Haha, who knew you could be a detective in Oblivion?

The only quest in Skyrim I can think of that reminds me of that is this one...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Laid_to_Rest

This.

And sadly the only other option is to give you spoilers (I think a detailed explanation of the main questline ending would be a BRILLIANT example of how much complexity and depth this game lacks) as examples, but that can't happen, for obvious reasons.
All I can say is that NPCs never give you the why's or how's, they just tell you "kill a dragon." Your decisions make no impact on the game world itself no matter how large they may be (with a FEW exceptions), so you also don't see depth via results. Overall, Skyrim is just incredibly dull and lacks any complexity or depth. It's literally "herp derp, kill a dragon."

I don't understand why the OP is being attacked for asking a simple question. I think its an excellent question & one I don't think I have the answer to but in my opinion no it does not. The game is centered around exploration & questing. For quests the player has 2 options, 1. Complete the quest 2. Don't complete the quest. While completing said quests at no point does the player ever have to make a irreversible decision that plays any major permanent impact. The environment remains relatively stagnant. Most of the quests are structured in this manor: Run to A, collect (x), return to quest giver. As far as exploration is concerned. Complete the dragon encounter in Whiterun & Bleak Falls Barrow & you have pretty much seen everything the game has to offer.

You're kind of proving his point. :facepalm:

His point is that these forums have two groups: critics and die-hard fans.
When (most) critics make a thread, they say "this game svcks because A, B, and C." They name examples of why they're disappointed.
When (most) die-hard fans make a thread, they say "this game is amazing." That's it. He's asking for examples of where this game is amazing so he knows where to look OR knows that he's already experienced the "amazing" but it just didn't do it for him.

Do the Master Destruction quest. No pointers, just a book and off you go. No hints or whatever to solve them, not even a dialogue option. Do it without checking up the quest, it's an awesome, if small, treasure hunt :thumbsup:

As far as complexity goes, the only thing i have to add is that it's not. Anything that has graphics and a controller can't really be called complex. Pen and Paper RPG are complex, because you can do whatever you want. Skyrim is on a similar level to Oblivion in complexity, you have stats, skills and perks. Some things are out some new things are in. On a whole, the only reason why i find Skyrim more "complex" is that it's complexity is natural, unlike Oblivion. I think many people fail to see past their numbers, and point back to the "complexity" of Oblivion, when on average, i spent 3/4 of the game leveling up awkwardly.

To be honest, I'm a TES fan. I just prefer the way things were in the earlier titles. I find Skyrim to be a good game and enjoyable. I'm just trying to find out why many claim it is the best in the series. I want to cut through the surface and get to the core of the matter. Yes, I see many improvement. I also see many things removed that I do not believe should have been... some of them at the very heart of the genre.

I have learned that I have to be my own critic when it comes to games scoring 9's and 10's in so many reviews. To me, they seem based on hype. The more hype something gets, the harder I'm going to judge it.

The first few days after the game released, this forum was full of pure praise. As time has gone on, there's a lot more negativity. That's natural. No game hyped up so much is going to be as good as it first seems. But there is still a lot of praise. I'm trying to find out if the praise for being so complex is actually true... or if it's still just the newness or even denial talking.

Again, Skyrim is a very good game. Great? Maybe, that's subjective. Complex? Not really that I can see. That doesn't mean I won't enjoy it... especially when fully modded... just as I have Oblivion and Morrowind. Claiming Skyrim as the best or most complex/deep in the series, though... that begs for an explanation.

What exactly do you mean by complexity and depth in a game?

Durr, Skyrim is so easy now I'm just going to equip a sword and kill everything in sight, because the game is so simple, requires no strategy character build or anything whatsoever.

Well hello there Death-Metal-Uberawesome-Lord Draugh, you look though, I guess I just have to push the buttons faster, no need for potions, no need for custom enchantments, no need for perks...
Wait, I'm dead, now how did that happen

Haha, I'm actually not sure how to explain it. How complex is the game or aspects thereof? How do many things react to one another to improve each other? How deep is the character system, the combat, the world design, whatever you can think of? Is there truly choice? Are there consequences?

Is it Chess or is it Rock, Paper, Scissors? Is it a game of Go Fish or is it Poker or Blackjack? Candyland or Monopoly?

Is there true beauty? Or is it only skin deep? Umm... is it just is just a normal car or is it a transformer? Is it just a cloud or a naturally formed piece of art floating in the sky?

Yes, I know I fail at my descriptions

You didn't actually asked what made it so amazing, you asked what made it so complex, which is a completely different question. I don't think it is particularly complex compared to say F:NV, it has little of the interweaving plots or moral choices that kept occurring, it's pretty much like Oblivion in that way (haven't done the civil war storyline yet). And I don't think ES would enjoy that anyway.

Some things are simplified but in a way that makes them feel much more natural to me. Character building, about which there has been a lot of complaints, is far better when it's based on what you actually do rather than what you choose to add perks to. Things like smithing are far better, it's easy to understand yet needs to be learnt and it's far better executed than in previous Beth games. They're less complex in the sense there isn't a clunky interface between you and the thing you're doing but that's hardly a bad thing.

Those things really help, for me they make it more immersive but let's be honest, it's the work that's gone into creating what feels like a huge map even though it's supposed to the same size as Oblivion's, the attention to detail, the variety, the random encounters etc etc, that make it so amazing. There are things I sometimes think could have been done better but really in comparison to what I like they're hardly worth mentioning.

And it's a bit unfair to compare it with a fully modded Oblivion a month before the creation kit is released, you should be thinking about it against the vanilla game.

Or is this complexity mean totally something different from individual to individual; hence the reason for these on going debates? Complexity to you could mean solving a Rubics Cube, while getting pummeled in the back of the head by Mike Tyson AND chewing ten pieces of bubble gum. While chewing this gum you must blow a bubble every ten seconds or else Mike Tyson lops your head off. Did I mention you must do all of this with your eye closed? Now this is just an example, and in no way am I trying to guess what you do on your spare time.

Now, if I happened to hit the nail on the head... ... ...some people wouldn't find that complex, but rather tedious. Some would find it rather painful as well. My point is the same can go for a video game. If the devs sit down and go: "Gee George! We sure know how to make a complex game"... But for some odd reason they for got the Rubics cube, Mike Tyson and the Bubble Gum. You know what I mean? They can't please everybody. It's impossible.

Ok, I see what you mean. In my perspective, it's not. I think the character development system has the potential to be very deep and complex but the implementation came a little short. On paper, having to think about how different perks with different effects can interact with each other and neutralize each other, can lead to much deeper strategy options than simply dealing with numbers in skill level and attributes. The implementation though, ended up not providing that many different strategic options in my experience.

About the underlying storytelling devices, it's really not very deep compared to other games. I don't think you can evaluate this in isolation from any comparison though. Our idea of how deep a game is depends on a baseline that is defined by all other games that we've played. In my opinion, the instances where you're given options are few but the game attempts to make up for that with an amazing sandbox that introduces a degree of uncertainty to everything you do. So, even if you've done the same quest twice, the third time you go and kill a bandit in a camp, a dragon might attack the camp. An assassin might try to kill you on the road there. A giant might be fighting a bear. So, less hard-coded options, more reliance on the randomness of the sandbox to provide replayability.

I cannot find neither complexity nor depth in Skyrim. Except that the world of Skyrim is very big and therefor has some diversity in it it does not give me an epic feeling I could immerse into.

I think simplicity is Skyrim's strongest suit. Simplicity in the sense that you're being dropped into the world, and then create your own adventure based on the framework provided. This is what the game does well.

Whether it's deep or complex, I haven't really considered. I've considered what makes me enjoy the game. And depth and complexity aren't really necessary components in my enjoyment. If I wanted sheer complexity, I'd try and find out how to build a corps, army and army group in Aegod's American Civil War and then try to make said force do what I wanted it to or spend a day or two understanding the logic in Pride of Nations. "Depth" and "complexity" more often than not derive from archaic user interfaces, hidden die rolls, frustrating gameplay and learning-curves suitable for mountaineers. Games that can make things simple and immediatly enjoyable, yet still offer rewards and incentives for further exploration are few and far between. Skyrim, so far, seems to be such a game in my book. Depth and complexity are great qualities in a date, maybe even in a novel. Whether or not they are great in a video game depends on how much of a glutton for punishment you are, I think.

I find skyrim deep and complex because I can have three characters each focus on the same skills, yet be entirely different. I can cook my own food, I can make my own gear, all the way back from acquiring the source material, refine it, and than actually use it to forge my equipment. I learn alchemy properties by actually eating the ingredients.

Not long ago, I was a vampire who walked into a town with hidden vampires, who commented that I should back off, because this was their hunting ground.

On a mountain I found the aftermath of a avalanche, most places I go I can find hidden clues as to what passed before I came there. I found a skeleton corpse from a character from oblivion, who went to skyrim and died because he underestimated the hostility of the falmer. I can meet prisoner transport, where I can choose to free and give the prisoner a portion of my equipment, so we can fight off his captors. I can come across old journals which will activate entire questlines, some will just leave clues about the world.

I can be ambushed by a thief, who I can either fight, give up, inimidate, or pursuade, and if I have ties to the thieves guild, I get special dialog options to resolve the situation. Sometimes a chased refugee will run up to me and hand me stolen merchandise while he escapes from his pursuers, and then come back and retrieve the item.

Companions I have with me will comment on the places we will go, revealing more about them. Even bandits tell stories to each other, while I hide in the shadows and plan their doom. I can make companions do actions which be unsuitable for my own character, or would get me in trouble.

If a merchant finds out that I stole some of his property, and can risk mercenaries coming to beat me up.

I walked up to a battlemap and as I activated each little flag, the location was added to my map, as my character recorded the location.

Most quests I've played have different outcomes, giving me the option to act out my characters moral.

I can simply do honest work, earn honest coin, and live as just another citizen. I can be a hero, a villain, or nothing. I can be whatever I want to be.

I have seen every city, married an npc, crafted many weapons, sold many vegetables, sold many firewood, ventured many caves and dungeons and became every guilds faction leader.

All of this and probably more in one playthrough. The second playthrough will be considerably less exciting concerning the world of Skyrim and it's activities.

You have no in game moral to speak of, no decisions you can make beyond that of where you want to go and what guild you want to join. There is freedom of movement but no freedom of will beyond that of saying Yay or Nay.

Not sure about the complexity, but there is depth in Skyrim. At least in the battle system. And when I say depth, I don't mean "deep" and as in "requiring deep thought" to fight your opponent. What I mean depth, you have a ton of options in how you want to fight your opponent. You can charge head on as a Warrior and hack 'em to pieces. You can be a Mage and simply blast them with spells. You can conjure up Atronachs and let them do all the work, while you sneak a few hits or two when there is an opening. You can bring a Follower and let them be a diversion to keep your opponent occupied, while you hide somewhere and sneak up behind them and backstab 'em. You can bring a dog and let him nibble while you run around the room, find an opening, and hit them with a destruction spell and when the dog goes down for the count, you keep running away until the dog regains his energy and creates another temporary diversion. You can fire arrows from a distance. You can sneak and be a sniper... archer? Or you can use a combination of all the above I mentioned. Probably some other ways, but I can think of anything else.

Most games only give you one or two ways to deal with an opponent. In Skyrim, there is numerous. I can be a lazy conjurer (that's how I role-play my character anyway, so it fits: he's so unbelievably lazy) and have them do all the work while I loot for loot and still succeed. Other games, in no way I advanced through a game being this lazy.

So many options. Like a basketball team with a bench that can do so many things for you. That's your depth in Skyrim. Well, just the battle aspect of it.

Much of what you wrote is exactly what I thought, the first 10-20 hours. Then I realised that tehre is nothing more to it. Every quest will end up with you killing someone in a cave or finding an item in a cave. Doesent matter what it it its always a cave in the picture. Lets take the bard college for example. I come ther wanting to become a bard. Do they let me become a bard and play instruments and sing? No. Instead they tell me to go to a cave to find something that suppoesdly was lost long time ago. Make absolutely no sense in any way.

Companions are nothing more than braindead zombies who obey everything you say. No will of their own. Thats simply not deep or complex.
Becoming Arch-mage in a couple of in-game days? No problem! In fact it doesnt matter if you are the leader of thieves guild and dark brotherhood and dont know anything about magic! You can still be arch-mage..

They focused to much on dragons and combat in this game to make it deep. Yet they failed there to. Dragons are just annoying after the first 5 and the combat system is very unresponsive and pretty poor.

Just a huge world with immense amounts of lore, quests and a very intricate political schematic if you really involve yourself in the world. Most of the people who power-level their characters then just blitz through the main faction, guild then story quests probably don't ever see it.

Also character development can get pretty complicated when you have complete freedom to do whatever you want. Most people want to do a combination of things that may or may not mesh well together, and making complex hybrid builds viable can be tricky if you don't exploit in any way.

Besides, depth and complexity are relative terms in gaming. Of everything out right now Skyrim easily has the most depth and complexity, but gaming in general has been moving away from that for a little while, so that's not as pronounced a statement as it would've been 5-10 years ago.

I had for a time approached games without affording myself imagination, and so refused to believe. I thought I was just done as a gamer. If you allow yourself to imagine and get on without the game telling you what your choices are in a dialog box, Skyrim is a wonder.

If you need your role playing options spelled out for you through a conversation choice, you may be disappointed, but ask yourself this:

Does a lack of a dialog choice preclude me from doing what my character would want to do anyway? Perhaps the issue here is that it is too open ended in that you write your own script through your actions and not by clicking on a conversation choice.

Wow, that does seem to be complex, haha! It's not necessarily the result of failure that makes it complex, though. That just adds to the emotion. But having to do all of those things at once... that's what makes it complex! Not to say complexity is always a good thing, but that is complex.




I suppose lack of dialogue choice makes it break immersion and depth. What I would say causes much more grief is the inability to choose to kill a random, or even non-random, NPC because they are classified as essential. It's quite silly, really. I tried to intervene in the beheading scene in Solitude just to see what would happen. I managed to kill ALL of the guards and many townsfolk. But this random argonian (I believe) simply would not die. He kept getting back up, but still came looking for me after I ran away and hid. I knocked him out numerous times, but there was no escaping his wrath.

Not to mention that the same system really limits you from truly role-playing an assassin-type of character. Why can't we kill a random jarl or queen or general? I can kill all their guards, but not the actual leaders... or even a simple shopkeeper sometimes. That's the exact reason I got turned off of Assassin's Creed. I went to great lengths to position myself strategically for the first main target, especially after being preached to about stealth. Then when I finally get close, the screen flashes, my character sheathes his weapons, and all I can do is casually walk. I was forced to walk closer and closer to the target until a cutscene began. So there I was, having prepared for a rooftop ambush, now finally regaining full control of my character five feet in front of a row of hostile guards who were already charging me. It turned into a full-on melee, not a stealthy assassination. It's needless to say that I have never played another Assassin's Creed game.


Ps. Thank you all for giving your thoughts!

What makes it deep and complex?
Well, lots of things...

1) if you know the TES lore, you'll make your decision in this game based on what you know. Which is fantastic.
Exemple: Civil war. Do you know what happened? You'll try to make predictions and think with the game.

2) the exploration reward. It's not only fun, you feel that you've accomplished something after entering a cave and reading journals and learning new stuff from it.
Try disabling your quest-arrow, the game is better this way.

3) immersion. the atmosphere of this game is awesome

4) the soundtrack is amazing Love it

5) as I said before, the lore is amazing. And it's huge.

6) you'll feel that you're inside a fantastic world.

Then you'll be enjoying the game like it should.

I don't care that much about dragons, really.

hmm, its an difficult Question but il try.

For me it has depth and complexity in the Lore you can have if you reading Books. Over 300 Books here, and many of em contain nice Lore about History, the Creatures, and often Hints for Quests.

I love all the Hidden Quest, okay if you find an Questgiver its not more hidden but there are some very hard to find Questgivers around ( Kyne Quest as example ).

I often stumble around Landmarks and i dont know what they are for. Also often i see strange Things just in the Landscape ( Sword holded by Sceletonarm in an Waterpool ).
Such Things give me an feeling about Depth and complexity like ( Thieves in an Town after all Townguards killed ) .

thats it for me.

edit says : Mage Quest i got the Books without Fight because i have an big Speechcraft Skill.

Fair comments. I heard about someone who had one these guys follow him into his house. Now every time he goes to his house he has to repeatedly knock this guy out. he just won;t go away. On that front I agree fully!