Skyrim, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3: Are RPGs Evolving or Dy : Othor Games

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:22 am

With the biggest RPG franchises getting more and more ‘streamlined’ and user-friendly, we have to wonder – does the genre have any hope of surviving?

Five or six years ago, someone might have taken a look at the properties dominating the gaming industry in terms of both sales and buzz, and seen mostly shooters clearly atop the pile. Quite a bit has changed since then and now RPG titles are just as prevalent, influential and groundbreaking as any other genre. It makes sense though, since some of the first computer games could best be described as role-playing, whether it be text-based games like Zork or games for the die hard graph-paper-types like King’s Quest and Ultima.

The amount of commitment and dedication to gaming that those first titles demanded wasn’t easy to come by, and with the mainstreaming of the video games industry into the billion dollar business it is today, priorities have changed. Instead of designing games specifically for their target audiences, developers and publishers are making it their goal to appeal to the average gamer.

What this means for franchises like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and now The Elder Scrolls is that the complex and intricate gameplay mechanics that have defined the genre are being tossed aside in favor of a more “user-friendly” approach.

We here at Game Rant aren’t against progression or evolution of gameplay, and we have little interest in debating whether the changes will result in a ‘better’ game.

Instead, we’re wondering what this means for the modern RPG, and whether it has a chance of existing in its current form, or will inevitably be twisted into something that no longer possesses the qualities that defined the genre.

http://gamerant.com/skyrim-dragon-age-2-mass-effect-3-rpgs-dying-dyce-68478/

This is a very good article discussing the state of RPGs these days.

I strongly hate all the dumbing down that keeps on happening in my favorite PC genre. I dislike how much the RPG genre has changed over the last 5-10 years going from deeply complex games with loads of character customization and classes to gradually become simpler and simpler to appeal to people who simply dont like reading manuals or learning how to play the games themselves. I want my favorite genre to remain as strong, deep, complex and completely satisfying to play as it used to be in the past. If there is one reason why 'PC gaming is dying', it is purely due to the dumbing down greed that a lot of developers have developed a strong hunger for in order to try and make games that will appeal and sell to casual FPS gamers. We hardly ever see this level of dumbing down in the PC Strategy game genre, most games in that genre have maintained what makes them great and they retain their appeal to their fans. But the RPG genre for some completely bizarre reason keeps on getting more and more simplified as time goes on, that it raises a very valid point - What will the RPG genre be like 10 years from now? At the rate that they seem to keep on going, I hate to have to imagine that we are literally going to end up with simple FPS games with bows for pistols, swords for knives, and spells for rifles with completely linear stories and games that only last around 20-30 hours being marketed as RPGs.

I dont want that

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:00 am

It's not a true danger in my opinion. Games change and aren't always static.

Take the Final Fantasy series for example.

FFIV-FFIX more or less played kind of similarly (with very different character advancements systems). FFX was far more linear. FFXII is one of the least linear in the series and focuses far more on game play than plot. FFXIII takes a 180 turn and is easily the most linear in the series, focusing more on story and battle to battle encounters than exploration for most of the game.

The short of it is that experiments with one game don't mean that's how all games will be. Variation is a great thing in my opinion. (I don't think the change from ME1 to ME2 was that bad either. In ME1 it gets really silly how many pieces of duplicate armor/weapons you get.

Would dozens of carbon copy games be better? In my opinion, no.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:06 pm

I agree, I thought ME2 had a good story, but was completely lacking as a RPG. DA2 was horrible too. The forums were a joke there. All like, oh it was too bad that that they re-used the same 6-7 areas over and over, but the game deserves a 10/10. Gotta love fan boys, or devs in disguise, or whatever.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:03 pm

i don't think they have a chance at dieing... i only say this because it depends on the developer

Bioware there games i honestly have issues with the only game that i like was Dragon age Origin... the second one no just no.
mass effect well i don't like 3rd person shooters so ya
bio shock i always lose interest in after a few missions in

as i said it depends on the developers if any one can pull it off it would likely be Bethesda game studio
they have done a good job thus far they have pulled off where other people have failed so i think RPGs are in no danger at all...
:thumbsup: the thing about Bethesda is they take there time on a game to make sure it comes out great

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:16 am

I agree, I thought ME2 had a good story, but was completely lacking as a RPG. DA2 was horrible too. The forums were a joke there. All like, oh it was too bad that that they re-used the same 6-7 areas over and over, but the game deserves a 10/10. Gotta love fan boys, or devs in disguise, or whatever.

This.

Reviews said it was the RPG of the decade....LOL, right, lets forget RDR, Elderscrolls, etc. etc. There's no way that piece of crap DA 2 was better in the RPG sense than elderscrolls or RDR. Do they know what RPG means?

Sorry, I'm ranting.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:08 pm

I don't know enough about Skyrim to determine whether it is a poor RPG, but DA2 may as well not be considered RPG. It's an okay action/adventure game, but horrible RPG.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:22 am

DA2 is pretty much what left me worried as well. I would seriously prefer carbon copied games if they kept everything intact without removing anyting.

I fully support experimentation and change, but why is there any need for removal of gameplay features in the process or to simplify things? You dont make a genre better by removing things from it, you make it better by adding new features or making it deeper and with more content than it had before.

I think that its quite the reverse to changing a game or genre for the better by removing features and making the game simpler, to me that makes them worse. If you want change, then implement it as new and improved features, not removing things or simplifying the game.

I dont know enough about Skyrim yet either, but recently reading about birthsigns and customisable spells potentially being removed had me a bit worried.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:23 pm

In my opinion, the role-playing genre isn't dying, I thought that article was about the is the chain reaction that's been brought on by BioWare; They went from developing the best story-driven, old-school D&D RPGs to mainstream (http://www.nowgamer.com/news/5141/bioware-we-want-call-of-dutys-audience) action-adventures. I don't even consider Mass Effect and Dragon Age RPGs anymore.

RPGs are evolving but what people are actually focusing on is the loss of one of the cornerstones of the role-playing genre.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:54 am

uuugh.... I was about to make a thread about something like this...

Streamlining, mainstreaming and opening up for a wider audience is NOT A BAD THING.
Even though some might think otherwise, RPGs are not only for the selected few.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:19 am

Well looking at Morrowind how you had to gather info for yourself whether from npcs or other sources (I think), and then looking at Oblivion's compass...I would say the OP has a good point with this thread. I hope they keep Elder Scrolls a good RPG. Where you can live another life, in another world. Not live another life, being led by the hand, in another world.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:42 am

uuugh.... I was about to make a thread about something like this...

Streamlining, mainstreaming and opening up for a wider audience is NOT A BAD THING.
Even though some might think otherwise, RPGs are not only for the selected few.

Right, using this logic, novels like the "Song and Ice and Fire" series should be continued using the Dr. Seuss way of telling stories to open them up to wider audiences. :cryvaultboy:

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:06 pm

When was the last time anyone saw a good flight sim?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:16 am

Right, using this logic, novels like the "Song and Ice and Fire" series should be continued using the Dr. Seuss way of telling stories to open them up to wider audiences. :cryvaultboy:

Don't know about Song and Ice and Fire but I think I get ure point

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:54 am

Streamlining, mainstreaming and opening up for a wider audience is NOT A BAD THING.
Even though some might think otherwise, RPGs are not only for the selected few.

I dont understand that, there is absolutely nothing preventing casual gamers from playing and enjoying non streamlined RPGs.

Streamlining the RPG genre doesnt make it any more appealing, nor is it really opening up to a wider audience as there is nothing stopping those people from buying non streamlined RPGs and enjoying them for what they are.

Streamling RPGs however is a bad thing for fans of the genre who dont like their games being dumbed down so much, and can no longer enjoy them because of that.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:46 am

Don't know about Song and Ice and Fire but I think I get ure point

Great series, since you enjoy fantasy you should check it out. And I initially quoted you by accident.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:53 am

Everything moves in circles. RPGS will be dumbed down to the point where nobody buys them anymore, and then a developer will come along and try to capture the hard core, old school, gamers by releasing a hard core RPG. This will sell by the bucket load and dozens of other developers will follow suit. Then the cycle of dumbing down will start again. It is the way of the universe. :thumbsup:

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:41 am

I dont understand that, there is absolutely nothing preventing casual gamers from playing and enjoying non streamlined RPGs.

Streamlining the RPG genre doesnt make it any more appealing, nor is it really opening up to a wider audience as there is nothing stopping those people from buying non streamlined RPGs and enjoying them for what they are.

Streamling RPGs however is a bad thing for fans of the genre who dont like their games being dumbed down so much, and can no longer enjoy them because of that.

Even worst comes to worst, they can have OPTIONS to have the game suitable to hardcoe RPGers and to casual gamers. PLEASE HAVE THE OPTION TO TURN COMPASS OFF! And be able to get info to complete quests from npcs and other sources.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:53 am

Well I did enjoy DA2 in terms of story and combat - but as an RPG fan (dating back to pnp before I even had a computer, and since playing on the PC it's the potential for exploration that really excites me more than anything else) the recycled areas and maps really annoyed me, and I am sure this would not have been an issue had the development cycle been longer - what was the timespan they had to push the game out, 18 months or something? I feel sympathy for the area designers in Bioware right now, I wonder if they feel that they might as well be on a factory conveyor belt sticking chips onto circuit boards or something like that?

ME2 was IMO the poor cousin of ME1, which I loved, 2 was far too FPS-y for me, with linear "on the rails" progression through areas and little exploration.

I don't think the RPG is dead - I think it might be taking a bit of a break until people decide that they are fed up with (and hence fewer sales and poor reviews of) crossover genre titles which fail to fully meet the expectation of either group (FPS fans and RPG fans) satisfactorily, and then we'll see more games faithfully dedicated to satisfy either one group or the other - but only once developers have worked out that you can't please everyone, all of the time.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:53 pm

Everything moves in circles. RPGS will be dumbed down to the point where nobody buys them anymore, and then a developer will come along and try to capture the hard core, old school, gamers by releasing a hard core RPG. This will sell by the bucket load and dozens of other developers will follow suit. Then the cycle of dumbing down will start again. It is the way of the universe. :thumbsup:

When was the last time anyone saw a good flight sim?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:24 am

I think that some RPG's are dying.

Lets face it, most RPG's tend to not be the most "user friendly" game, and by that I mean most games are dumbed down for gamers and RPG's typically aren't.
Except they are becoming like that. Sad...

Of course I only think some series are in danger. TES is flirting with it, but I don't think they will ever cross the line too far.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:51 am

It's a pretty hard call, because there will be many camps on the subject, those playing on the platform and those playing on the PC. If the game has shortcommings on the platform, you are more or less stuck to use your imagination to make the most of it. On the PC, especially if we are dealing with TES properties where you are encouraged to mod or accept mods, any shortcommings will be worked around by the talent of the modding community. There is little denying that there are tons of talented people in the modding community with some pretty exciting visions to add to their games.

So with that facet alone of RPG gaming, the ability to mod and accept mods for those not on the platforms, any such concerns will be transitory at best. For the platform gamers, it will be a true hit or miss.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:16 pm

I think one problem may be that we expect a lot more considering what technology we have but many of us were around when the original NES was still kickin it. I think back to one of my favorite games, Super Metroid. That was a classic and it was HUGE for it's time but if we applied todays technology to it we could make a game of the same type that's a thousand times bigger or more.

The thing is that we've sunk a LOT of time into making the best graphics we can and with that taking up so much of the space it seems like gameplay has pretty much stayed at the same level or has actually dropped off some and become even less complicated and even less open.

I love nice graphics, I do, but I've got to say that when I found out about minecraft, regardless of the fact I've only played a few minutes of it, it put a big smile on my face. There's nothing like seeing the sunset in a huge sandbox game and embracing the almost godly essence we've been able to slice off the universe but sometimes I want to have to work for my high jump boots and to be honest, an almost never ending planet Zebes would feel much creepier with 8 bit music playing in the background.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:44 pm

There was a really good article by 'Desslock' in PC gamer (April 2011) about immersion in new RPG games. It wasn't really about the death of the RPG genre, more about what actually constitutes an rpg game. Many have said that any game is an RPG because you roleplay that character but desslock argues that you need to roleplay a personalized story about the character you play...

Anyways, dunno why I brought that up in this thread although it is very loosely related.

I think RPG's are becoming too 'dumbed down.' Let us think some times!

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:59 am

I'm with you, I don't want that either. :sad:

I think the trend seems to be to make an action game, then just chuck a few skills and level system in there and call it an RPG. What I find particularly insidious about Bioware is this trend to start a series with a superb RPG, then make the sequal a watered down or "streamlined" action game. I don't know if they do this deliberately to lure in an RPG audience or what, or if they just want to churn something out as quickly as possible to capitalise on the original's success.

I think RPGs are on the decline but they won't die out. Every now and then one will come out, maybe from a European or indie developer that will revitalise the genre and make everyone remember how good (and profitable) those sorts of games can be... at least for a bit.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:44 am

Considering the wide variety of games that have been called "RPGs" over the past decades, there isn't really much to be worried about. Stuff changes. And changes again. And changes again. Yeah, things may change in a way that *you* don't like anymore, but that doesn't mean the genre is "dead", it just means you prefer a different style. And as long as there's someone else who does like the current style, things sell and are considered successful. Doesn't mean the style won't shift again.

edit: I'm trying to remember some comments I made about ME2 back when it came out..... it was something along the lines of: Yeah, it's story was a bit weaker than ME1's, but the role-playing & choices were better - instead of the generic "top right convo choice is paragon/good & other choice is renegade/bad", there were a good number of places where it was more vague than that. The "paragon" choice might not always be the good or right way, for example. Much more grey and less clear-cut than the first game. Yeah, it didn't have a giant manage-your-inventory minigame. But in some ways it was a better RPG than the first game. Just, like I said, not as strong a story.

Combat system? Heck, I prefered the turn-based party combat system of the original Wizardry & Bard's Tale games. Or the 3/4 overhead turn-based combat of Ultima & the SSI Gold Box D&D games. The "combat" of RPGs hasn't been like that in decades, mostly. Doesn't mean that "RPGs" have been declining - just means that the style shifted.