The demo idea you put could be worth a shot, give the opportunity to show a couple of the mechanics and at least give a flavour of what they're trying for.

Would just be great to get some word from Bethesda on this, copy protection and digital rights management and any irritation or inconvenience that come with is the key point for a purchase decision or passing up on Skyrim for me.

The only thing this game needs is a Zero Day protection which prohibits the game from being played before the release date by checking the date and time online via an encrpyted channel. If the date does not check, the ecrpyted .exe will not be decrypted and thus, stay unplayable. This has never been cracked. Not for Dead Rising 2 or the most recent Bulletstorm. So with all the leaks happening, people won't be able to play, no matter how early they get a version. This is really what makes companies lose money, if it happens.

Brainslasher has hit the nail on the head. AND don't make it check say, Bethesda's servers for a date and time. Have it check a random atomic clock that Windows uses for time syncs. "oh the atomic clock says it's X on Y date, decrypt".

Would you like to buy me a 360 or PS3 then? I dont have a current gen console, and will solely be playing Skyrim on a PC. I use Steam for some of my games, and hell, I don't currently have a problem with it, and have even bought a number of games from them that were on sale. I know that at any time, my account could be closed, locked, and my games are gone. It's something I knew going into my purchases.

Skyrim is a different beast. I absolutely love Morrowind. I still have the disks lying around, and will still continue to play it once Skyrim comes out. I do not want to stake my ability to play what may possibly be one of my favorite games, on the hope that my Steam account won't get hacked and shut down.

Or I could follow your suggestion, and spend.... something like $300 on a console that I'm not particularly interested in, so I can play the game without Steam.

The problem here with the Steam fans is that you guys can't separate a game being available on Steam with the DRM in your mind.

All the good things you go on about like all my games being available on any computer, friends lists, etc. has NOTHING to do with the DRM used on the game. Heck, even if the game used Securerom you'd still have all that available to you if you buy the game on the Steam store. Heck, you get similar things on any digital store you may choose (Impulse, GG, etc.)

The DRM is DIFFERENT so please, get this into your brains. By using Steamworks it *forces* everyone to have to use Steam, has to load Steam, has to run Steam just to play the game. If it were to use a different DRM, say a one time activate with Bethesda (like many games do) then those that want the game in Steam still have that choice, but for the many who don't want it on Steam can have that choice as well.

So I just don't understand this overwhelming "Steam of bust" attitude. Steam users can *STILL* have the game in the Steam ecosystem and have their friends list and whatever if using a different DRM then Steamworks. So why do you want to force Steam on me and everyone else?

I just don't get it.

*edit* just realized somethings are better left unsaid.

SecuROM [censored] around with my system a while back, so as far as I'm concerned if DRM must be used, anything else would be better. Just on the basis that I want some honest software that actually tells me it is installing itself on the computer, and that I have the option to remove it (even if that includes the game).

But considering their previous involvement with it, I guess it will be SecuROM. Noooooo.

Yes, Steam fans, please remember, it's a one-way street.

Not using Steamworks doesn't mean No Steam version. But using Steamworks does mean Steam is our ONLY option, and that's why we're mad. You can have Steam without Steamworks. You can't have Steamworks without Steam.

Games with securom and 3 time (or less) installation maximum is not even a option for me.
Hence I will not buy Mass Effect or Assassins Creed, no matter how much I would love to play those games.
Steam doesn't seem as something I would want on my computer either, that's why I don't even bother about Fallout NV.
If Skyrim force one to install steam I will pass on that game to.

Same as they used with Oblivion - Basic CD check. No fuss. DRM is not needed.

I have a friend who's an absolute computer gaming nerd. He refuses to buy Mass Effect series because EA released it. I asked why. "Because of EA's [foul words] DRM that [more foul words] my system and [even more foul words] svcks." Consider that. I've had friends banned from Steam for quite literally no reason and Valve basically telling them "piss off". I don't support draconian DRM like EA and Steam for that reason.

As horrifying as this quote may sound; what would you expect? They don't offer this guarantee because they would never be able to live up to it simply given the unreliable nature of hardware and software and internet itself. This lack of guarantee is a legal shield that protects them from lawsuit if there a hiccup with their systems, a hacker attack or any other number of complications. They can't guarantee that this service remains any more than any one of you can guarantee that your children will make it home from school, that your dog won't get hit by a car, or that your house won't burn down while you're vacation. Accidents happen, and they quite simply they need to state it plainly that cannot guarantee anything to protect their business.

If they actually did offer a guarantee they'd be fraudulent morons. I highly doubt that they wouldn't do their best to avoid catastrophe and maintain their services as long as possible, however, supposing they didn't hit sudden bankruptcy. There is money in keeping your consumers happy after all.

Forral the problem is they make *zero* guarantees. Not even a hosting 5 9s guarantee (99.999%). Meaning they could be down for a week and if we howled and raged they could tell us to stuff it, no guarantees. The secure operation one is where I'm like "what." though. They don't guarantee their servers are properly secured? What's all this?

Why do they have support and bring back stolen accounts if they don't care?

You cannot secure a server. Go try it. You can't assure anybody it's completely secure.

You're [censored]ing about technical language without knowing why the language is there. It's legalese, not english.

Right, but it still doesn't fix anything. You are not guaranteed continual access to stuff you paid money for. It can be lost to you, at any time, for any reason, and they have no obligation to do anything. From there, you can either buy it again, or go without.

I'm not gonna plunk down $60+ for something I don't have control over. Games like this, I'm going to be playing for years, probably decades, and I'm not going to want to buy it multiple times because of problems with a third party (someone not directly affiliated with either Bethesda, the creator, or me, the consumer). If I have a problem with Valve, it should not affect anything between me and Bethesda.

There's also a good chance that whenever I go out I could be mugged, attacked, run over by a car. Does this mean I should never go out again ? People dont have a good internet connection I understand that but to be afraid that it's somehow going to become self aware and track your every movement is bordering on ridiculous. I'm not suggesting you fork out X amount for a console just to avoid this ( I bought a 360 because my PC is getting old) what I'm saying is one should either quit [censored]ing and get on with it or play it console or not bother. Bethesda made the game they have every right to put any form of DRM on it they want. You don't own the rights to any of it they have allowed you to purchase a copy to play. And on top of all of this do you honestly think Bethesda would stand back if Steam went down and do nothing ?

The fact of that matter is, we don't want the whims of a 3rd party deciding if we play a game we legally purchased a license for.

I wasn't aware that the PS3 and XBox360 supported custom mods? That's great news! Now there is no need to get a PC vers...waitaminute...

Sorry, its not "the same damn game" If you had played Oblivion or Morrowind with Mods, you would see that instantly, and know that consoles are not an option. As well, considering how well Bethesda treats its PS3 players in regards to quality and patching, I won't be touching that version with a 10' pole, if it were an option.

....Really ? You think they flip a coin to decide wether they should close the site down or not ? Seriously man what are you smoking ?

You like Steam, that's fine. I don't, and you won't be changing my mind.

Then you can never buy a game again, because steam's EULA is by no means unique.

There are reasons to dislike steam, but by quoting reasons that are invalid, you hurt your own argument and the whole anti-steam argument as a whole.

Good luck actually revoking any other game license. As stated, my reasons against Steam:
A. Can't change install path
B. Increased memory and drive footprint
C. Frequent auto-updates to the client meaning we get to sit and wait while it spends 3-5 minutes doing mysterious updates

Once the data is on your hard drive they have as much say as any other publisher. Sometimes you need the steam client to play them - there you can use offline mode - and sometimes you don't - where you can launch the game just like any other game, run the executable.

Being banned from multiplayer games is no different from any other multiplayer system, and in 99% of cases, bans are justified. In the cases they're not, such as a bank charge failing, I've seen steam un-ban the account when given sufficient evidence.

As for your reasons:
a) Sure you can, either across drives built in or with NTFS Links.
B) No. 100mb, almost all of which can be swapped out, at worst-case? No, that's not worth worrying about. We don't live in 1990, the tiny amount of memory and drivespace it takes up are completely negligible.
c) Can be annoying, I believe you can turn them off, and in any case 3-5 minutes at startup is hardly worth bringing down the heavens for.

[quote name='Lord_Jaroh' timestamp='1298645048' post='17230660']
I wasn't aware that the PS3 and XBox360 supported custom mods? That's great news! Now there is no need to get a PC vers...waitaminute...

Sorry, its not "the same damn game" If you had played Oblivion or Morrowind with Mods, you would see that instantly, and know that consoles are not an option. As well, considering how well Bethesda treats its PS3 players in regards to quality and patching, I won't be touching that version with a 10' pole, if it were an option.
[/quote

But clearly consoles are an option. Or else they wouldnt be there. You like using mods that's fine more power to you. I however, do not buy games solely for the purpose of being able to mod them or use mods. Some people just enjoy playing games and killing stuff without the need of seeing naked NPC's having children or houses etc.

Mods do not make the perfect game by the way. in the case of a fallout mod I used it caused more issues than in resolved.

But what has any of this got to do with steam ?