Skyrim, DRM, and you : V - Skyrim

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:42 am

About the topic, I have two major demands of whichever method of copy protection the developer chooses:

1. That I actually fully own the copy I buy and can do what I want with it. That means no "constant internet connection", which means that the game might be unplayable at a future date or even days with bad connection, and no "can't resell" BS.

2. That I don't have to install additional software, either third party online crap or local pests like StarForce. GTA IV is a perfect nightmare example. "No, I don't want to install Games for Windows, I just want to play the game". "No, I don't want to install Rockstar Social Club, I don't care about "sharing my achievements", I just want to PLAY THE GAME". I couldn't even start the game without installing a patch through GFW, which it initially refused to do since I apparently didn't have something called "Silverlight" installed. That's four additional installs before even getting the game to START!

It's one thing if you're asked to install GameSpy Arcade or whatever, which you can just decline and never hear from again, but when you're actually forced to install additional programs just to get the damn thing to work, that's more likely to make me hate the game before even starting to play. I will never, ever give Rockstar my money again for this simple reason that GTA IV pissed me off so much with all the surrounding hassle. And now UbiSoft can also go to hell after killing Silent Hunter V.

So what happens if you lose the disc or it gets damaged at least then you dont have to worry about playing the game. I doubt anyone would be happy if they had to fork out ANOTHER 40 quid or whatever because these things sometimes happen. That's right, once the game is installed you don't need the disc.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:49 am

I remember playing Elite on the Amiga years ago and being absolutley gobsmacked by it. I had hours of fun playing that game. If you tried to sell that to younger people today they'd laugh at you. While I think we have made great strides in graphical terms, I think people are putting way too much emphasis on it being the only reason to buy a game. We got what we got back then and we were stuck with it which is why I think todays generation is somewhat like the spoiled brat in the sense that they are never happy with what they are getting and if they dont like something they throw a tantrum. ( god i feel all depressed now thinking back haha)

Yeah, I hear you. X-COM is another prime example. A classic series, certainly not famous for cutting-edge graphics, that is now being relaunched as a flashy FPS, as if the world really needs another space marine shooter...it will probably be forgotten and supplanted as fast as a Call of duty game. *sigh*

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:25 am

So what happens if you lose the disc or it gets damaged at least then you dont have to worry about playing the game. I doubt anyone would be happy if they had to fork out ANOTHER 40 quid or whatever because these things sometimes happen. That's right, once the game is installed you don't need the disc.

Well, isn't it as likely that you should lose your install due to a faulty hard drive, or being forced to reformat it, or reinstall your OS? Or losing save games placed on an online server, as opposed to your own computer, which apparently is a popular concept among developers nowadays. It's really up to the buyer to take care of his CDs/DVDs as he would any other object. Personallly, I've never seen this as a big problem, and certainly not something I could blame others for.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:07 pm

Well, isn't it as likely that you should lose your install due to a faulty hard drive, or being forced to reformat it, or reinstall your OS? Or losing save games placed on an online server, as opposed to your own computer, which apparently is a popular concept among developers nowadays. It's really up to the buyer to take care of his CDs/DVDs as he would any other object. Personallly, I've never seen this as a big problem, and certainly not something I could blame others for.

I have never had to reformat my hard drive ever. I have never had to reinstal an OS either. I have screamed when i have scratched a disc and while your right I can't blame others for that its handy that I no longer have to worry about losing the disc as I dont need it.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:57 am

But they didn't told him to go [censored] himself and tried to help...

The first time. They helped the first time, and he got his account back after a couple weeks (during which he couldn't access them), then after a while, he lost his account again, and got no explanation to why. Valve says something about PayPal, but PayPal says nothing is wrong. In the mean time, he's left without his account, and by extension, the games tied to that account that he paid for. The magical Offline Mode won't fix it.

apparently there is some issue with paypal, maybe the problem was there and not with the store? I too got many error when i purchased things but never a double charge for a product, so it may well be a problem with paypal and got nothing to do with steam...

Regardless of whose fault it is, it does have to do with Steam, because Steam is preventing him from accessing those games. A couple thousand dollars worth of games, that he may have lost completely.

That is even what I was trying to say. A problem on Valve's side, or with PayPal, is preventing the guy from accessing games he legally bought and has on his machine. Games that have nothing to do with Valve (barring the few made by them) or PayPal, but it's still Valve that won't let him play. And sure, Valve may be well within their rights to do what they're doing, and that's precisely why I don't want to deal with it. If it ever happens to me, I would have no legal recourse to get back access, and I'm not willing to risk or put up with that.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:58 pm

Exactly. Those 49% of people are Steam fanatics. 51% does NOT want mandatory Steam.

:slap:

Just because I like Steam doesn't mean I'm a fanatic.

Steam isn't the end of the damn world. :violin:

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:12 pm

What if they make it GFWL exclusive, eh? It's hundred times worse than steam and you'll hate it even more...

Actually, I'm quite alright with GFWL. I can tell it to piss off and it never bothers me again.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:38 pm

1. That I actually fully own the copy I buy and can do what I want with it. That means no "constant internet connection", which means that the game might be unplayable at a future date or even days with bad connection, and no "limited installs" or "can't resell" BS.

Take that up with the ToS

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:01 pm

What if they make it GFWL exclusive, eh? It's hundred times worse than steam and you'll hate it even more...

Meh. I installed both FO3 and FO:NV. FO3 was less annoying. Yeah, it did that GFWL thing at the beginning, but then you could ignore/disable/whatever it, and never think about it again.

(Note that I'm not talking about the digital download of DLC - in that, Steam is much better. But that's what Steam is - a digital download service. Getting the Pitt and Broken Steel from GFWL was horrible. But since I don't really care about most DLC, or can wait for the GotY/Complete/whatever edition, there's no need to download the stuff anyway. No need to force the use of Steam for that either. It's fine as an option for the people who do like it.)

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:32 am

See, that's where GFWL is superior. It bothers you once, and if you say no, IT NEVER ASKS AGAIN. Steam pesters you like a 3 year old child being ignored by its parents, it just never relents. Ever.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:16 am

Take that up with the ToS

?

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:45 pm

Uhm, GFWL also caused catastrophic crashes for me. Loss of data, once, but hard reboots every time. Maybe it got fixed, but needlessly to say, it went straight to the bin. Do you think I would ever touch that thing again?

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:45 pm

See, that's where GFWL is superior. It bothers you once, and if you say no, IT NEVER ASKS AGAIN. Steam pesters you like a 3 year old child being ignored by its parents, it just never relents. Ever.

yeah what they really need is someway of having it offline, maybe call it offline mode. What do you think ?

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:50 am

Meh. I installed both FO3 and FO:NV. FO3 was less annoying. Yeah, it did that GFWL thing at the beginning, but then you could ignore/disable/whatever it, and never think about it again.

If you explain what exactly happens it would be nice, couse i didn't installed it. What is that "thing" is it the gfwl client? If i understand correctly you have a retail version, so explain me the procedure, pl0x

As far as i know gfwl games require you activate the CD key in game with the client - at least that's how it goes in steam. I have few games that require gfwl in steam and it pisses me off why would i need a drm in the drm? Yeah a "yo dawg..." situation :lol:

Worst thing of all is that your CD key has a limited activation, so i avoid games that require gfwl like the plague...

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:58 pm

yeah what they really need is someway of having it offline, maybe call it offline mode. What do you think ?

You know, I've tried offline mode. Oddly, it doesn't work. Try to launch a game: STEAM IS CURRENTLY IN OFFLINE MODE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO ONLINE? Say "Stay Offline" "STEAM NEEDS TO BE ONLINE TO LAUNCH GAMES" Me: what.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:36 am

You know, I've tried offline mode. Oddly, it doesn't work. Try to launch a game: STEAM IS CURRENTLY IN OFFLINE MODE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO ONLINE? Say "Stay Offline" "STEAM NEEDS TO BE ONLINE TO LAUNCH GAMES" Me: what.

Wow, either your running it on windows 3.1 or you're the unluckiest person I know.

» Sat May 28, 2011 11:40 pm

You know, I've tried offline mode. Oddly, it doesn't work. Try to launch a game: STEAM IS CURRENTLY IN OFFLINE MODE, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO ONLINE? Say "Stay Offline" "STEAM NEEDS TO BE ONLINE TO LAUNCH GAMES" Me: what.

Only for games that Steam knows they aren't updated to the most recent version. If you despise Steam that much, put it in offline mode as soon as you finish installing the game and never put it in online mode ever again.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:25 pm

Mordy, that's just the thing. Turn it to online mode, GAME LAUNCHES JUST FINE, no updates. Me:

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:40 pm

Mordy, that's just the thing. Turn it to online mode, GAME LAUNCHES JUST FINE, no updates. Me:

It works fine here, must be something wrong you did

Or maybe it was a game that specifically refuses to launch when Steam is in offline mode. It's not Steam's fault in that case same as a GFWL might refuse to work with an offline profile.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:16 pm

I choose not Steamworks but Impulse. This way once the game is installed I can turn it off and not worry about it again untill the next patch comes out.

Impulse so much better than Steam.

I will never use Impulse again. I bought a game from them, but I could not play it due to the DRM. For some reason it would not work with my PC. I contacted customer support, they could not help me and would not give me a refund. I eventually downloaded a cracked exe to play a game that I legally purchased. Steam is not perfect and I hate games I buy on DVD requiring it, but it has always worked for me. Auto-updates can be disabled, and after a onetime activation the game can be played offline. I trust Steam will be around in 10 years to activate my games more than I do any game studio, and prefer it to any onetime online activation. Bethesda has a good track record with DRM. I've only had problems with Morrowind's constant disc checking, witch a cracked exe fixed until Bethesda released a patch fixing the problem. Over the past 20+ years of gaming I have had many issues with DRM, and now avoid any titles with too much. Until the day DRM is no longer used pirates will continue to be the saviors of PC gaming for those of us that pay for our games. To bad they are also the cause.

» Sun May 29, 2011 12:18 am

Mordy, that's just the thing. Turn it to online mode, GAME LAUNCHES JUST FINE, no updates. Me:

Witch game are you talking about? First check the integrity of the game cache while online [right click properties on the game in steam -> local files -> verify...], then close steam and try deleting the clientregistry.blob file from the steam directory and start steam again, wait for it to update. See if that helps

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:56 pm

I voted for Steam as well, however as I was reading through this thread something occurred to me. The only thing that I can see bad about Steam is the fact that you can't really collect anything like you can with box games, which may some day show up on Antiques Road Show and be worth a small fortune. With the digital version though you really have nothing to collect....

» Sun May 29, 2011 1:42 am

It was VVVVVV, one of only two reasons I even have Steam installed in the first place. The other reason being Audiosurf. Oddly enough, killing the Steam.exe a few times, flip flopping between offline and online a couple times then doing a defrag through PerfectDisk of D:\ caused it to work. le sigh.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:52 pm

I voted for Steam as well, however as I was reading through this thread something occurred to me. The only thing that I can see bad about Steam is the fact that you can't really collect anything like you can with box games, which may some day show up on Antiques Road Show and be worth a small fortune. With the digital version though you really have nothing to collect....

You can buy it retail and activate it through steam, some games allow that.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:51 pm

Post limit. Let's give this topic a rest now as the same answers are just being repetitively posted and going round in circles.