Power users like being able to install certain games on different hard drives. Say I want Skyrim on my SSD but the rest of my games on a regular magnetic disk. Not possible with Steam.

Yeah I didn't even think of that.

What contradiction would that be? That I was shown a "demo" of a game, liked it and purchased it, along with purchasing a computer in order to play it? There was no "right" and "wrong" side here. If he had brought over his copy of the game, It would have amounted to the same thing. I would have played it and bought it. That it was a copy only allowed me to play it on my sub-standard system until I could afford to get a new system that could play it better.

When I was younger, I used my tape recorder to copy a mixed-tape of assorted songs to use during a party. I also did a lot of recording off the radio to listen to songs later. I would often play the songs for others to introduce them to bands/songs for others to get into. This would in turn either make people try and find copies if they liked them, or they wouldn't bother if they didn't like the songs.

Would the above make the people who happened to listen to the music pirates? Would the ones that went out and got copies of the tapes/cds be "reformed pirates"? And the ones who didn't, scum-svcking losers that don't support the music industry because they didn't happen to buy a cd first to discover if they liked it or not?

When he brought over the copy, I had never heard of Oblivion, let alone The Elder Scrolls. No one would have made any money off me had he not brought over that cd. In fact, if I had heard only marketing and advertisemants, I would never have bought the game. I dislike first-person shooters, and the game is a "first-person shooter with swords and magic"

I consider "sharing" of games as simply another form of advertising. Either those that like the game will buy it, or they won't like it and they won't buy it. Either way DRM prevents this sort of thing, and in my mind that loses sales. The true "pirates" are going to bypass any DRM that is installed on the game and play it regardless. Thus it's a waste of money and resources that could go towards the game, or simply lowering the development costs.

But let's not turn this into a pirate/anti-pirate thread. I regret responding as much as I did, I just didn't want to be seen as a "reformed pirate" as I was never one to begin with...

Steam makes the games harder to pirate, and bethesda deserves every penny for the great games they make, unlike unsupportive PC gamer hater...EA!!! :whistling: but the ubisoft DRM is just over the top and punishes players that pay for their games instead of stopping piracy

I can't change the install path with Steam. That reason alone is a good enough one to not use Steam.

Ok just posting another post to people saying stuff like if you use A or B DRM I won't buy your games or Pirates aren't an issue because if you make great games they will buy it and vise versa i dont know... Anyway you got to look upon this in a company point of view, they can't seriously base their future economy of 5 years of modeling texturing recording, yea simply hard work upon: Believe in yourself bethesda and pirates won't be a problem because then scenes like skidrow and razor1911 simply dissappear in to the blue, it doesn't work that way. They need to minimize the amount of people pirating or else 5 years of investment would be down the drain.

And yet those two groups you mentioned basically prove that DRMs don't stop piracy. Ultimately, DRMs are a lot like gun control laws. They only hurt the law abiding citizens. Pirates circumvent the hassles of DRMs while those who obey the law are forced to put up with them. Spore is a perfect example of that. Pirates: unlimited installs. Law-abiding citizens: 3 installs and then they're screwed. Steam isn't much better. At any time, for whatever reason, they can choose to cut off all access to a game you paid money for.

(That's not an endorsemant for piracy, by the way. It's just me getting tired of feeling screwed for obeying the law.)

The Steam EULA is downright scary is one reason to not use Steam. Here's some quotes.




I'm sorry but the idea of Valve being able to carte blanche take away the ability to play a game I legally purchased does NOT sit well with me. and their "If you don't like it, leave" attitude towards their ability to do this reeks of arrogance.

Lokee, you forgot this gem from the Steam EULA:



Scary, indeed.

How about none? At best it'll just slow the pirates down a week or so. Stop pestering legitimate customers.

Facebook policy also says that they can freely use the pictures on your account for any use ergo they practically own your picture. But that doesn't mean that you see pictures of your friends in viagra commercials everywhere (sorry if I am out of topic) My point is many policies written are just safeguarding ofr the company so if anything goes wrong, they won't get their :whisper: sued, for example: termination of subscription of accounts simply gives them the right to terminate the rightfull ownership of a game that a hacker has hacked one too many times on.

This is why I don't upload pictures to Facebook. I don't want them owning my pictures. I hate Steam for the fact they can revoke my account at thier whim, for any reason and as someone else quoted, Steam doesn't guarentee anything.

I honestly think they should just make it like all TES games; require the disk to play.

Its simple.

Keeps the average guy honest.

If therye going to steal it... they will. It doesnt matter WHAT you do, and stupid things like Steam only hurt the legitimate consumer (like how i cant install a game unless i have an internet connection... which i didnt btw when i bought FO:NV.) Other things, like what that flop of Spore had, will only serve to utterly decimate the game. For months, there were more pirated copies (of whom the individuals enjoyed the game, free of artificial constrictions) then total sales (of whom the legitimate buyers were hexed by over zealous DRM methods).

DRM should perform its function on a basic, viable level, which will provide ABSOLUTELY NO INTRUSION to the legitimate consumer, such as serials and requiring the disk to start. Bethesda is smart enough to realize that a pirated copy IS NOT A LOST SALE. People who pirate with no intention of purchasing the game, likely never would have to begin with. Also, there are a vast number of people who DO pirate that still end up buying the game. Basically, you want just enough protection to prevent the game from being freely copied and played, with out impeding the person who has and owns the physical (or digital) copy.

So in the end, having more then a basic, non intrusive level of DRM hurts the legitimate consumer far more then the it doest the pirates, and despite efforts, does not stop pirates. Infact, pirates will strip the software of whatever is preventing it from being played, and enjoy the game with out impedance, laughing and leaving the legit consumer suffering.

I really don't see why steam is considered to be so evil, I have never had a bad experience with it and most games run fine. I rather them keep up with steam if they are going to have to pick between that and one time install which i just think is horse manure. I mean what If I upgrade to a new computer for the sole purpose of enjoying the game at hd quality, your up the creek without a paddle.

That being said, I think people don't need to worry about it. Bethesda led by a team of really talented people who love games and have a deep-seated passion for what they do. This is their baby, not like the fallout series which they easily let another team do NV, this is the Elder Scrolls we are talking about.

They know what is going to synergy with the game and what is going to make players pull their hair out. Really the only way it affects you is how you end up installing the game for the most part. For people looking to pirate it just means too bad so sad.

People who understand the best way to get a good game will fund Bethesda's with legit purchases and sing the praise for when they do right. And if they don't well then you would have an actual right to become upset.

When some people look at Steam, they choose only to see the fluff. They only see the automatic updates, the achievements, the sales, or the social features. They fail, or choose not to see what lies at it's core, however. They overlook the control they exert over the software you paid for. They overlook the fact that you play the game only because Steam allows you too, and that they can take it away whenever they want. They fail to see that with Steam, despite the fact that you gave them money, you don't actually own anything. You're not buying the game, you're buying the privilege to play the game. A privilege they can revoke. You can only install the game where they choose. You can only modify it in ways that they allow. One day, they could decide they don't like the various script extenders, update your game whether you like it or not, and those mods will be dead.

Why people do this, I don't know. Either they choose to remain ignorant, or they just don't care. The latter kinda worries me.

As long as it doesn't use games for windows live or something akin to it i'm fine. F:NV works fine without it.

@ mith: you make it sound like if they're having a bad day they'll just choose to throw down the lighting bolt. and as far as not owning it? i'd like to see your legal reasoning behind that.

also relevent
http://www.brighthub.com/computing/windows-platform/articles/32622.aspx

TBH, it does get annoying everyday having to put in your disc and then if you forget it then it will just get old and scratched.

I've had to buy multiples of the last 2 TES games from playing out the discs.

Give me Steam, or No Disc Check after I register, or activate.

I can go for Steamworks IF and ONLY if Beth makes the original English version available.
At the current moment, i have to dl F:NV updates from some shady sites, because the 1C-Cenega version doesn't have even the first patch! :brokencomputer:
If such a situation arises with Skyrim, then GTFO, i'm saving the money for some Christmas promotions on Steam

The DRM is meant to stop casual game copying. They know darn well they can't stop the ambitious pirates.

Granted I'm sure part of the DRM craze is to appease technologically illiterate stockholders who at the end of the day only care that money is coming into their pockets. If they can make the DRM cause those stockholders to see dollar signs it doesn't matter how much it actually helps, especially when they can (quite disingenuously I should add) present every download as if it was an actual lost sale or stolen copy.

While Steam may have some troubling EULA entries it's a heck of a lot better than some of the alternatives, such as the malware-like Securom. At least Steam isn't installing intentionally corrupted directories and hidden software onto your computer and removing it is trivial if you want to. Sony has shown it thinks it is above the law with their CD rootkit software in the past, and Securom is an extension of that philosophy. I really don't care if modern versions of Securom don't have the malware behavior of earlier versions: the fact is they did it, installing malware-like infections without user consent, in some cases rendering user optical drives unusable with no apparent solution, the Securom infection installed and hidden without user knowledge. That actual attack on customers' computers by the Securom software in the past trumps any creepy EULA text for Steam (some of which would never stand up in courts).

Going with steam is the only good DRM option i can see. Sure it will be good to see the game DRM free but we know that's not gonna happen thus my vote for Steamworks.

It's a singleplayer game so piracy will go skyrocket regardless of DRM or not. Thing is, crackers will always find some way to circumvent the protection and pretty much all you listed in the poll already is.

As for disincentives, this could turn out to be a pain in the ass for the legal prayer if it is done poorly. Yet its all in the executable so i don't think it will hold pirates at bay...

They have the legal right to do that in their EULA. try reading it, you do NOT own any games you buy on steam, or anywhere for that matter. You never own any software you download/purchase unless it specifically says so in its EULA.

If they can avoid day of release cracked versions being put up for download then that would be the worst of the potential damage negated.

Release a demo and there's no reason to use the pathetic excuse of "oh I downloaded it just it" admitedly it would be more difficult due to the nature of an Elder Scrolls title, but it is certainly something that PC development needs to address.

Please Bethesda listen to the community which are prepared to buy your product, slapping us in the face by tieing us to a third party service in the shape of Steamworks or other connection required methods without alternatives just creates more bad feeling for a number of us. There's a large world outside of the US and not all of it has perfect internet, this without even looking at rural areas of the US or areas that are running older connection lines. This forum has a wide variety of nationalities looking to play the games you make, would be foolish to rule them out, unless you really don't want their money?

For the record - SecuROM based disc check, depending on how the title sells there is always the option for the developer to then patch the requirement out, an appreciated gesture when it is performed.

How to do a demo: Make it say, just a largeish cave. You do some fighting, maybe talk to a few friendly NPCs. exe is not binary compatible with full version, and maybe console not included too. For a preview of LOD, maybe a section of the cave could include a cliffedge battle, who knows? Wouldn't take long to throw together.

Oh my good lord, I've never heard such doomsay in all my life. " But what if the sky should fall in on us"? " What if they decide to pull the plug"? For goodness sake get over yourselves! Firstly it's a video game. Worse things happen at sea. Secondly, I seriously doubt Bethesda/Obsidian or whoever would allow for this to happen without a backup plan. Who gives a monkeys [censored] if you have to use third party software ? It isn't like you experience lag while playing it or it constantly has pop-ups. How big is the program ? Can't be anymore than a few MB. Now surely everyone has enough room to accomodate it. Its free, yes free, they dont ask you for credit card details and never will. Still dont wanna play it on PC?

in this case....PLAY IT ON A [censored] CONSOLE ITS THE SAME DAMN GAME!!!