Bethesda started going mainstream with oblivion and ended up tottaly mainstream with fallout 3
Hope it will make a few steps back toward the good old times

Which is evidence of a far more serious problem than mere "dumbing down to appeal to casual gamers," because, as you yourself just admitted, casual gamers don't even like those things.

Bad, simple, and dumb are not mainstream.

Mainstream only means that the majority of people or in this case gamers will like the game. So if you are mainstream it probably means that you are like the majority of gamers and "going mainstream" therefore means you made a game that fits the wants and needs of a much larger section of gamers/people. It does not mean that you are less intelligent or less attentive or less interested. It just means that you are with the majority of gamers. That said, making RPGs attractive and accessible to more gamers means success and it also means that RPGs continues to have a market and thus more will be made.

Since "being mainstream" means "The prevailing current of though", it is often used by folks what wish to stand apart from the masses because they want to be unique, smarter, tougher, bigger, brighter, better. The problem is that most of us are none of those things. Most of us are capable of playing any game we desire. Most of us are pretty average despite our desire to stand out and above the rest.

So, bottom line is "are they mainstreaming"? Yes, I sure hope so because to be successful is to please the most gamers/RPG players. And doing that means the company makes money and can continue to challenge us "average" folks in new and more ways. It assures us that this genre will continue. Those who truly don't enjoy these games and feel they are a cut above the rest only really have one alternative and that is to play indie games and ensure their small successes because profitable companies will seek to please the majority and to pull more in if able too.

There will be little to no success with games that aim to please a much smaller group of non-mainstream gamers. There is no profit in such and there is no shame in being like most people or to be average. Most of us are whether we like to admit it or not. We are all bozo's on this bus.

This. All of the this. All of it.

Daggerfall had a big map but it was all one giant cut and paste job. Morrowind (and Oblivion, actually) are both way bigger than Daggerfall in terms of unique content)

I don't think the problem here is appealing to more people, mainstreaming
I think it's attempting to appeal to people who don't actually like rpgs

I think bad, simple and dumb "were" not mainstream. Because when you add a new feature to a game that a certain group of people will like there will always be another group that will dislike it. Its simple group mechanics . Therefore because of that fear the big game developers have tried adding features that both side will like or at least change those features and adapt them so more people would buy the games. And since those features are almost nonexistent games have become very simplified and very similar looking. But lately some developers have taken notice of this and tried to not repeat those mistakes and i think one such example is new vegas which was not a perfect game but was alot better then anything i played in a long time. So that's why i;v got some faith that Skyrim might be a great game.

Actually, player did own houses. Even small towns. Not talking about Raven Rock, town you built in Morrowind and could get to own a house there once it was fully built.
If you rose up in ranks of Telvanni, Hlaalu or Redoran they built you stronghold, small village which you owned.

That was owning house in another level than in Oblivion.

About being mainstream, can't tell. Probably. We might be witnessing TES series jumping the shark.

Although I never got into Fallout 3 and didn't really enjoy it that much, I felt that they did try to cater to the Fallout crowd and didn't go all-out mainstream with it. They could of removed anything remotely offensive to any group of people and toned down the violence a lot and also not bothered with the VATS and just gone standard FPS with it; that would of been an all-out mainstream product, which I personally felt was how they approached Oblivion, trying way too hard to please everyone and going for the lowest common denominator in many areas.

:thumbsup:

Exactly. Mainstreaming, to me, means making the game more accessable to the average gamer who really isn't an RPG fan and trying to make a game that they will enjoy as well. You can replace RPG with any type of game, but when you when change the game to make it more accessable to people who don't normally play that genre of games you are "mainstreaming".

Have I mentioned that I really want these back yet? The strongholds were awesome and about a thousand times cooler than any bought house could ever hope to be.

This, and by doing this they leave the people that liked the series since the start behind. I'll say this, Oblivion was a decent game but if you would put it beside Morrowind, it would almost look like they were made by two different companies.

It's attempting to appeal to people who would like RPGs, but aren't willing to give them a chance. Or at least it should be.

If you define "mainstream" in such a manner that includes scripted FPS and RPG players in addition to open style unscripted RPG players, then Skyrim could definitely be more mainstream than Oblivion.

Fallout 3 and New Vegas provide incremental examples of this.
o Now we get reminders of unfinished quests each time the game loads in case we forget how to open the Pip Boy quest screen.
o We get VATS so that we do not accidentally miss when we shoot at someone.
o In one NV quest we could not even be bothered with walking to the quest location. Once I agreed to go with this person, Fast Travel automatically took over.
o New Vegas developers built invisible walls around things to prevent access from alternative directions, for reasons that I am scared to speculate about. Considering that when the walls were removed, one quest became much easier, I think that it was to preserve the holiness of the quest.
o Not only does the compass and Pip Boy show quest locations, we now get a dotted line to show the direct route to the location, presumably because no one can read maps? I was always amazed in FO3 how everyone knew how to enter a location into my Pip Boy. By NV, I was no longer amazed.
o The game was quick to tell you whether interactions were available based on PC skill, and they they kindly told you whether the action will succeed or not and what skill level you need to be at to get it to work. Huzzah! I want that next time I approach my boss about a raise!
o Oblivion and Fallout 3 have examples of linear "dungeons" in the classic "level" style where the player plows through in a predictable manner and is provided a convenient exit at the end so that they don't have to walk all the way back. Most, if not all, of these linear "dungeons" have a "boss" at the end, in the furthest room, behind a locked door, with the key in the flower pot half a level back, because it is expected.

Now, not everything about Fallout 3 and New Vegas is bad. They actually have some things I wish were in Oblivion, like smarter monsters and some UI changes, but the things above demonstrate how Skyrim quests and gameplay can be further trivialized.

I expect that Skyrim will pull from Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas. The question is not whether, but how much, Skyrim will provide salvation to the scripted FPS and RPG gamers.

Define RPG as it relates to games today. What is an RPG?

Isn't this the exact opposite of how the old Fallout fanbase thought Fallout 3 was too mainstream (i.e., they didn't like the idea of combat where you could accidentally miss when you shoot at someone at all)?

Can you people at least agree on what the "mainstream" is?

I know but what i meant was they sort of went even more mainstream when they started working on a game like fallout.
Sure,bethesda did get many good elements into fallout 3 and overall it was even more popular than oblivion, i just think that bethesda should do what they do best,making unique rpg fantasy games instead orienting on post apocalyptic games which are very present theese days as a part of a mainstream

yeah that would be pretty much whack in every way for tes.

I can't see that ever being good. I think that is my only worry about it. sure invisible walls at the boundary of the map I get. but for funnelling you around is by definition linear. And is contrary to a basic tenant of tes.

What do you mean "you people"? No seriously "mainstream" is in my opinion trying to appeal to people that aren't really into rpgs.

Just what the initials mean, Role Playing Game. The only RPG's I've played are Elderscrolls RPG's, I don't play any other RPG's because none could compare to Daggerfall and Morrowind. Oblivion was a huge let down.

I want a game that is as complex as Daggerfall and Morrowind. I want an RPG that allows me to Role Play and explore, not hold my hand from start to finish and treat me like a kid who can't remember what they are supposed to do after only 10 minutes of playing.

Tell me what to do, put it in my journal, tell me where to look for what I'm doing and let me do it. I don't need red arrows, I don't need reminder pop ups, I don't need to see a dungeon on my mini-map that I'm not even close to or know about....all I need are the instructions, not the instructions and then a point by point walk through on how to fulfill those instructions.

at the end of the day, TES5 will probably carry the title genre and be entered into the rpg category. Isn't there some kind of contradiction here. Why would you make a rpg game and try to sell it to people who don't like rpgs.

Not to mention rpg players are a large market, making them quite mainstream.



I have to stop you there because of logic fail. if you never played any other rpgs how do you know anything about them? honestly you think DF and MW are the be all and end all of rpgs? its a big world dude!

But the rest of your post i agree. hand holding is basically crap in rpgs. have a 'beginner dungeon' and let them fend for themselves

What do you think they did with Oblivion? Their main audience were the people who didn't normally play RPG's. That is why they are mainstreaming it, to make it more accessable to those who don't normally play RPG's and try to expand the amount of people who buy the game.

I hope they make Skyrim more RPG and less mainstream, but I'm not going to hold my breath because when it all comes down to it they want profit over making an RPG that is complex. Unfortunatly, complex RPG's aren't very popular any more. That is a shame.

I hope NOT! oo:

Um no?

the game clearly is slated as rpg. why would someone who doesn't like rpgs buy what is essentially an rpg game? that specific audience is not one they make games for. lol that is probably the one market share they have written completely off.

I'm going to have to do some research and find the quotes, but Todd Howard himself said at one point about Oblivion that they wanted an RPG that everyone could enjoy. They want, and more than likely still want, to expand their audience. The only way to do that is to promote their game to the general gamer who doesn't normally play RPG's.

Just wait until more comes out about Skyrim and you'll see the same thing, they are going to key on the general gamer not focus on the RPG players.