Karma has always been what you make of it in TES games. If I feel my murder is justified, I do not want to lose karma. Why should karma even affect gameplay? Would people be able to sense your evil nature, or would it just be something for you? If it is just for you (which is pretty much how all TES games work), then what would the purpose even be? I want to determine my goodness, not some game mechanics.

I think karma would be good. It would limit who would be willing to help you.

For instance, in Oblivion, I could find someone who hates me and make them like me in a few minutes by flattering them and telling them jokes.

Now, let's say that I have bad karma. When I try to flatter the person or tell jokes, they should say something that implies, "Get out of here, swine!" Instead of saying, "Oh, that's cute."

but wat does it exactly do becuz i played multiple characters and i did bad factions first in one and good factions first on one and it didnt matter if i did fighters first and got fame or DB first and got infamy i was still treated the same by people

I vote NO

Fame and Infamy is a much better system, the reason being it is not a 'mystical moral judgment' but rather how society views you.

I normaly play a rogueish character, and try to keep my fame an infamy in some sort of balance, It's like robin hood, he was famous, yet infamous at the same time. He was a hero, yet a bit of a scoundrel.

What I would like to see is the Fame an Infamy to be expanded on. Perhaps including Honour and Dread.

Honour would represent that you fight fairly. Someone can be infamous and still have honour.

Dread would be that you are ruthless. You will strike down oposition without hesitation. In the same manor, it doesn't say you are evil, as a Famous loved hero can be ruthless with his enemies inspireing fear in them
Think Richard the Lionheart.

Also it would be good to have more local, and social reputations. For example, if you are constantly stealing from upperclass, and you keep giving coins to beggars, then upperclass should start to distrust and dislike you, while lowerclass would like you.


the Karma system in fallout just feels wrong. It's like I'm constantly being watched and judged by my actions. So many times, I've slain a bunch of raiders (who attacked me first) then when I scrounge through their belongings for some stimpaks I get negative karma for 'stealing'? so immersion breaking.

I rather having a system wich simulates public opinion, not a ambigious moral hammer that hits me on the head, when I feel what I'm doing is justified.

no not joing the fighters guild maybe= quests that are in the karma guild you have the choice to change to quest instead of killing the theif maybe.... help him steal stuff in the guild?

Being a moral nihilist I would prefer for you youself to decide what is acceptable and what is not along with the npc's or factions to act accordingly via a fame or reputation system. Basically I want TESV to be morally ambiguous in the regard that a given action is not "evil" but that doesn't mean that say a city state won't still be pissed off at you for choosing to ally with another city.

Thats the exact thought I have. The game should not determine your characters morality, rather it should determine societies view of your characters actions.

Also, I hate the backwards forwards slider that karma uses. Fame and Infamy is good, because they are SEPERATE scales. You can be Famous and Infamous at the same time! Again, I bring up my reference of Robin Hood.
Let society judge you by your actions, this is fair. But a hero may have to at times do questionable acts to achieve his goal.

at the same time, someone who is 'evil' may do good deeds to those loyal to him, or if he (or she ) feels that it is appropriate.

There are more forms of moral allignment than 'Selfless Saint', and 'Sadistic Bastard'


EDIT

Another thought, 'Fame' doesn't nescisarily say you are 'good' either. Someone can be famous for achievments which they undertook for selfish means. Rockstars are famous, not because they feed starving children, but because society views them as individuals of great skill and talent.

Personally i really dislike anysystem that imposes its own morals on the choices you make. i don't mind some sort of consequence system but good and evil aren't the extremes you're aiming for... One based on society's perception of you, is better: example - I always liked the entry quests for Viconia in the Baldurs gate games because you lost reputation if you saved her, sure she was an evil character but if you were driven by an inner sense of morality then it's a 'good' choice to save her because she's being discrimiated against for being a drow, as opposed to society's view that she was evil because of her race. i think this system allows you to keep the feedback and effects, without impinging on your roleplaying by making anything definitively good or evil.

was there an rpg that was made that just didn't have any form of karma system or reputation system. i wonder how good the game would be if there was literally no system for that stuff

No I'd like my elder scrolls morality to stay gray thank you.

It's one thing to have a reputation with individual persons or factions, but I hate, hate, hate morality meters.

The idea that you can only choose choice X if you've leveled up your goodness or evilness for 20 hours is ABSURD.

If my character has FREE WILL, then he/she should be able to make any choice at any time. That's how choices work in real life.

So no. No ridiculous karma system. No morality meters or any kind. Ever.

No thanks. I've really grown a distaste for the juvenile good/bad black/white approach to morality that a lot of games have. One of the things I liked most about Dragon Age is that it lacked a morality system and I hope Skyrim takes that route as well.

is there a game where there was no karma system so i can look at its content and compare it to TES