Previously on the last episode of Skyrim isn't a RPG, let alone a good RPG.

So using the above quotes, drugs are bad and every game is a RPG.

Nope. Only games with character differentiation and skill development are RPGs.

Then Saints Row 2 isn't a RPG because there is no character differentiation and skill development.

If choices and consequences are what makes an RPG then....

Choices and consequences do matter because ADD weight, to your decisions. Skyrim only has the illusion of choice where everything has been already decided for you, forced to be on the rails.

I think you have Skyrim confused for some other game. You can always ignore whatever quest you have/don't want to go do something equally fulfilling somewhere else in the world. In order for the game to be on rails, you need to do things in a specific order AND in a specific manner. Individual questlines (Particularly the terrible ones, like the Thieves Guild) are on rails.

If you think Skyrim is on Rails, you've never been on actual rails before.

I know they matter a lot but they are not the only thing that makes an RPG.

They aren't the only thing true, but it improves the roleplay experience by helping you to better adapt to the role.

Yes while you can ignore quests, there is no way to deny quests so they add up pretty first in your journal. Sure you can ignore quests, but when you do quests theres no real choice. No matter what you choose to say, there is no different outcome.

A fourth thread? Really?

I'd never feel happy telling someone that Skyrim is an RPG. I'd them that it's an open world adventure game, where you can choose how you want to play the game.

Sounds about right, Hagrid.

I'm not concerned with the classification. it's a game, and I like it.

That's my thought, too, and I think it is a good open world adventure game

Saints Row 2 is, at best, a sandbox action-adventure game with some basic RPG elements thrown in.

To reiterate some points I made in the previous topic:

• An interactive storyline / branching dialogue choices are not essential or defining features of the RPG video game genre. These are adventure game features, therefore Skyrim should not be considered a lackluster RPG because of the lack of storyline choices.

• Consequences for such choices such as determining the fate of the world or the outcome of wars are contrived, gimmicky and overrated anyway.

• Dungeon crawlers are RPGs too. In fact a good number of oldschool RPGs are little more than simple dungeon crawls. Features such as interactive storytelling and dialogue trees were borrowed from the adventure genre later.

So I consider Skyrim to be a lackluster RPG because the attributes and skills have been gutted, not because you the player can't make lots of world changing decisions in a heavily story-driven game.

While I'd argue that, while streamlined, the attributes and Skills haven't been "Gutted" as much as re-evaluated. Savage Worlds isn't a more lackluster RPG than Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition because it has two fewer attributes and a consolidated skill list.

The sheer degree of itemization, consolidated skills, perk combinations, and consistent growth of the core resources all make Skyrim a strong RPG.

Having a interactive storyline with branching dialogue choices and consequences for such choices make RPG video games much more funner to play though.

The problem with perks, as I said in the last topic, is they don't really add the layer of complexity they should be adding. Instead they're basically just there to simplify and speed up regular skill progression through % increases. So when people try and argue that perks somehow make up for the removal of attributes and skills, I would argue that they actually make the problem even worse.

Of course, I completely agree.

Personally, Pong is my favorite RPG.

I always relish that moment where I get to decide if my character would want to hit the ball or not.

Just because the game doesn't have any "skill development" doesn't make it any less of an RPG though. An RPG doesn't need a "skill-tab" in order to be an RPG. Besides, it does have skill progression. The more stuff you complete the better your character becomes and if you want you can pick and choose what bonuses to go after and limit yourself to the others for RP reasons, or you can go after everything and try to max out the character. Options!

And there is character differentiation, more-so than Skyrim really. I just posted 4 ideas for characters you can play out in the game, each of which will play different if you can stick to their roles. When I played through Saints Row 3 I created a black heavy woman in a red dress and combat boots that ran around using primarily shotguns which felt very different from my asian punk back in Saints Row 1, and in SR2 I created a dominatrix that used melee weapons the most and switched to a pistol whenever she 'had to' go ranged. Each character felt different despite the similar gameplay elements throughout the games and when I plan to play SR2 again I'm going to be a washed-up ex-cop who's got a tendency to drink even when it is a horrible time for it. And honestly, I felt more differentiation between these than I ever did in Skyrim. Could be because of how Skyrim doesn't play well (imo) in third person.

Oh and I just remember another one:

- "Just becuase an RPG doesn't have much choices and consequences doesn't mean you can't limit your character to fit your RP"

You can limit yourself in quite a lot of games, Saints Row 2 included.

I'll have to go with Tetris. It tells that inevitable truth of life, that no matter how long struggle, no matter how well you think you are doing, you're screwed


It does have much better character and equipment customization than anything BGS has ever released, though