Skyrim's Magic System : V

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:14 pm

So far, we know very little about Skyrim's magic system. What are your thoughts about how magic will work in Skyrim?

A few spells have been demonstrated in gameplay footage, or described in interviews, but we still don't know some of the fundamentals, such as how new spells are acquired, whether there will be a spellmaking altar, what sort of perks will be available for the schools of magic and whether it is possible to combine certain spells.

Personally, I'm most interested to know:
(1) whether there will be any spellmaking in the game and
(2) how we will acquire new spells, whether they might be reduced to perks, since the 85+ spell effects could be derived from the 60-100 perks of the magic skills.

Here is what we know so far:

5 Magic Schools: Destruction, Alteration, Conjuration, Restoration & Illusion.
Each skill gets 12-20 perks, so we are looking at 60-100 different perks for the magic schools
Alchemy is now considered a Stealth skill
Enchanting involves breaking down new magic items to learn new enchantment effects, rather than buying spells to learn effects.
Spells needs to be equipped to be cast.
You can equip the same spell in both hands to cast a more powerful version, doubling the effect at a higher magicka consumption.
You may be able to equip certain different spells in each hand to cast a new combo spell
There are over 85 spells effects to choose from, each with three different ways to cast.
You can blast enemies with a flame ball from afar, hold the button down to wield the spell like a flame thrower or place a rune on the ground to create an environmental trap that spontaneously combusts when an enemy steps on it. Each spell effect has the same amount of flexibility.
If you cast a frost spell, you'll see the effects on the enemy's skin. If you're wielding the flame spell like a flame thrower, the environment will catch fire for a short while and burn anything that comes into contact with it.
Fire deals the highest amount of damage, lighting/shock deals less damage, but drains the enemy's magicka, frost effects deal the least damage, but drain stamina and slows down enemies physically.
Light magic (from staves at least) can stick to walls.
Spells can be "found" in the game (this suggest it is less likely that spells would be reduced to perks)

Confirmed Spell Effects:

healing
fire
frost
shock
clairvoyance
turn undead
circle of protection
paralyze

More information from Todd Howard's February podcast

(Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLWt7HnAZPQ )

Spell crafting is kind of a -- it's a real wildcard, something that we've done a lot and there are pluses and minuses to it.

We'd like to find - we have some ideas that we really like on how to solve that and I don't know where that's gonna go.

But the thing that we don't like about the previous system that we've done is that it becomes very "spreadsheety" where it takes the "magic" out of magic, if you know what I mean.

You got to see the game, but your listeners haven't. There's a bigger emphasis on how the magic physically acts.

Just a spell like fire, there are different spells for how the fire moves, like putting it down like a rune, or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground like you're spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceilings and it's there. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance.

Our main goal is to make magic feel like this arcane, powerful thing, and once it goes into a spreadsheet in the game where you can say "I want something that that's this, this and this and in this power," it removes the illusion of how this stuff actually works.

We have some ideas of ways around that, but we don't know where those are gonna go yet. We do have the benefit of, we're really, really happy with how the magic plays in the game, both visually and mechanically. And then being able to do it with both hands, there are combinations and things you can do, without getting into the spreadsheet aspect of it -- which I do know that some people like -- but it does take away from the impact of the spells that you're finding and mechanically how they work.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:56 pm

He says spreadsheet 3 times in the exampes you provided.....and yet they Overhauled Enchantment and never once called it spreadsheety :spotted owl:

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:23 pm

mmmm maybe instead of having 100 diferent power fireballs, the power of the spell will come from your level on the skill, by example, making 20 damage at lvl 20, 50 at lvl 50.

In oblivion, the higher your level, the cheaper the spell, so something similar could be done with the damage.

What do you think?

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:24 pm

mmmm maybe instead of having 100 diferent power fireballs, the power of the spell will come from your level on the skill, by example, making 20 damage at lvl 20, 50 at lvl 50.. what do you think?

That makes a lot of sense, especially considering that when your Destruction skill is at 90, you will get a bigger XP boost from casting a fireball than you would if the skill was at 10.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:59 pm

That makes a lot of sense, especially considering that when your Destruction skill is at 90, you will get a bigger XP boost from casting a fireball than you would if the skill was at 10.

It would make more sense, intead of becomeing a fireball machinegun, that trusty fireball whiche you have used hundreds of times... could become more powerful, I mean, you already know how to handle it, so why not squeeze a little more power out from it?

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:17 pm

I'm thinking that perhaps we find spell tomes with specific spell effects, like Fire, Frost, Shock, etc., and then the perks are the different forms, like casting on the ground, casting as a spray, etc.

As for Restoration or Alteration spells, I imagine they would have very different perks, so when you find tomes for spell effects like Clairvoyance, Healing, etc., there won't be any perk to cast it on the ground, for example, but maybe a perk that makes the duration longer, or the effect more powerful.

If Todd Howard is concerned about putting the "magic" into magic, or eliminating things that remove the illusion of the power of magic, I would say that buying spells from merchants just as you would buy a sweetroll is somewhat contrary to that sentiment. I have mixed feelings about that because buying expensive spells was one of the main ways that I would spend gold in Oblivion.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:26 pm

That makes a lot of sense, especially considering that when your Destruction skill is at 90, you will get a bigger XP boost from casting a fireball than you would if the skill was at 10.

But that's kinda lame , no it's really really lame, because almost all RPGs I've played had this feature where spell damage increases with your level or skill but it never worked , you never had the effect or the damage you need , sometimes it becomes very weak , frost spells start feeling like a water hose instead of an arctic blizzard and sometimes its the opposite , your spells are too powerful for you so they cost too much magicka to be efficient enough .

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:16 pm

But that's kinda lame , no it's really really lame, because almost all RPGs I've played had this feature where spell damage increases with your level or skill but it never worked , you never had the effect or the damage you need , sometimes it becomes very weak , frost spells start feeling like a water hose instead of an arctic blizzard and sometimes its the opposite , your spells are too powerful for you so they cost too much magicka to be efficient enough .

This is true, even at a high level, for strategic purposes, it can be important to have the option of casting a weaker spells that don't drain magicka very much.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:08 pm

How about instead of spells getting more powerful as you level up there would be a slider in the magic menu where you determine how much magicka you want to use in any specific spell. So you could could put a moderate amount of magicka into a fireball and have that as your base magic attack or you could choose to pour everything you got into one massive fireball without having them be separate spells. With other noncombat spells this could determine the amplitude of the effect, this way your spell's power is basically based on how much total magicka your dealing with.

Using a system like that you don't end up with the basic spells that are pointless at higher levels. Anyway I agree almost anything would be better than buying spells directly from a vender.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:16 am

I'm really hoping that they will release some new info at quakecon that's worth getting excited over .

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:21 pm

They need to allow players to make scrolls via enchanting.

The fact that it would feel like you're working with a piece of paper would be okay, because you'd actually be making a scroll. They'd be ballanced by the skill enchanting keeping it in check, and you'd need a large amount of items to make multiple scrolls of the same spell. You could even make casting a scroll a two handed endever, by having one hand hold the scroll and another cast the spell.

They could get away with the spells looking like color-coated balls of magicka because they could have a whole bunch of effects radiating from the scroll so the visual people would be happy.

And the best part would be that you could get better with it the more you do it.

Better yet mages could get another item to wield out of this, ie a magic book. Books could allow players to put scrolls into it, and then they would draw on magica rather than burning up the scroll after the use. So if the book was in you're left hand, clicking the attack button would bring up a hotwheel like the hotkeys for the 360 in OB.

Then the depth of spellmaking would be there but it would be optional rather than required. With the different varients and ways to cast on the fly, there'd be pro's and cons of the different ways to cast magic. I think that would solve most everyone's problems and worries...

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:29 am

Wouldn't charging the spell solve the problem? If you want a low magicka spell, just tap the button. Hold it for more powerful. Maybe it's something along those lines.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:57 pm

They need to allow players to make scrolls via enchanting.

The fact that it would feel like you're working with a piece of paper would be okay, because you'd actually be making a scroll. They'd be ballanced by the skill enchanting keeping it in check, and you'd need a large amount of items to make multiple scrolls of the same spell. You could even make casting a scroll a two handed endever, by having one hand hold the scroll and another cast the spell.

They could get away with the spells looking like color-coated balls of magicka because they could have a whole bunch of effects radiating from the scroll so the visual people would be happy.

And the best part would be that you could get better with it the more you do it.

Better yet mages could get another item to wield out of this, ie a magic book. Books could allow players to put scrolls into it, and then they would draw on magica rather than burning up the scroll after the use. So if the book was in you're left hand, clicking the attack button would bring up a hotwheel like the hotkeys for the 360 in OB.

Then the depth of spellmaking would be there but it would be optional rather than required. With the different varients and ways to cast on the fly, there'd be pro's and cons of the different ways to cast magic. I think that would solve most everyone's problems and worries...

That is a very, very interesting idea, R.K.

Since they are limited to one-use only, it would be a bit harder to pull off some of the OP spell chain combos from Oblivion, even if you are using multiple scrolls.

Honestly, in Oblivion, I don't think I ever used a single scroll. Maybe once just for kicks, but usually I just sold them.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:48 pm

Wouldn't charging the spell solve the problem? If you want a low magicka spell, just tap the button. Hold it for more powerful. Maybe it's something along those lines.

I think you are correct on that. I just hope the animations for casting fire is sufficiently different from ice, from whatever else. I remember watching a video of Todd talking early on about how the devs took Bio Shock "spells" as inspiration for what the PC will look like when it casts a spell.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:03 pm

mmmm maybe instead of having 100 diferent power fireballs, the power of the spell will come from your level on the skill, by example, making 20 damage at lvl 20, 50 at lvl 50.

In Arena, you could use a "level" variable, to create a spell such as Fire Damage 10 points + (Destruction level) / 5. IMO the spell should level up with you only if you tell it to.

A "Charge" variable, equal to how long you hold down the button, would also be interesting.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:58 pm

I think you are correct on that. I just hope the animations for casting fire is sufficiently different from ice, from whatever else. I remember watching a video of Todd talking early on about how the devs took Bio Shock "spells" as inspiration for what the PC will look like when it casts a spell.

It seems that the animations are quite different, from the E3 footage as well as interviews.

And they have different effects on the environment and weapons - if you cast a frost spell on an enemy (or if they cast one on you), the target's weapons become frosty for a little while. If you cast a fire spell on someone, the ground burns for a little while, setting flammable things on fire.

Combined with the info about oil being flammable, this suggests some strategic opportunities to throw oil on the ground or on enemies and set them on fire with a spell.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:40 pm

That is a very, very interesting idea, R.K.

Since they are limited to one-use only, it would be a bit harder to pull off some of the OP spell chain combos from Oblivion, even if you are using multiple scrolls.

Honestly, in Oblivion, I don't think I ever used a single scroll. Maybe once just for kicks, but usually I just sold them.

I used to use them when my skills weren't high enough .

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:15 pm

I used to use them when my skills weren't high enough .

Wow, I didn't even realize you could do that. I learn something new about this game all the time. :read:

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:02 pm

Excellent thought Resistance

in my case however I rather Scrolls for Warriors and Thieve alike who do not dabble terribly in Magick, but have a Modix of skill to use the scrolls for their liking. for mages my ideal thought would be a more invovled system in learning and using the spells.

in past games you did not have to worry about the environment disturbing your magicka or spells, and even at a Time in Oblivion were you are on another plane spells still worked as if you were Mundus :shrug: my hopes Skyrim alleviates this, but its not looking likely.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:25 pm

in past games you did not have to worry about the environment disturbing your magicka or spells, and even at a Time in Oblivion were you are on another plane spells still worked as if you were Mundus :shrug: my hopes Skyrim alleviates this, but its not looking likely.

Interesting - do you mean that if you are in a hot environment that your frost spells should be reduced in power, for example?

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:14 pm

I think magic in oblivion was treated too much like arrows or any other magic...especially destruction magic where we just held cast till we ran out of magic or the enemy died. If they want to make it less 'spreadsheet' (if i understand their meaning) i believe that magic should be much more powerful and dynamic while taking longer to cast and exhausting your charecter. Instead of repetitive casting there would be one spell, that took long to prepare, that killed everyone at once.
There are a few flaws with this that i am willing to recognize. Mages would be extremely vulnerable without companions. Also, Play as a mage would not be as fast paced as it was in oblivion.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:18 pm

I don't understand what's leading people to believe spells might be perks. I mean there might be a few very powerful ones for high level mages, but I'm 100% sure the majority will not be perks. Stop being paranoid.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:31 pm

Excellent thought Resistance

in my case however I rather Scrolls for Warriors and Thieve alike who do not dabble terribly in Magick, but have a Modix of skill to use the scrolls for their liking. for mages my ideal thought would be a more invovled system in learning and using the spells.

To expand on this, maybe there could be quests to learn spells, similar to fingers of the mountain nut more directed towards mastering the spell itself insted of being taught it. ex. a quest to a deep cave that takes you to a volcano basin which would allow access to some fire spell.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:58 am

I don't understand what's leading people to believe spells might be perks. I mean there might be a few very powerful ones for high level mages, but I'm 100% sure the majority will not be perks. Stop being paranoid.

I still have a gnawing concern about it, due to the sheer number of all the magic school perks (60 - 100 perks), but fortunately, if you read Todd's quote above in the OP, he mentions that we "find" spells, which essentially rules out spells being perks, or makes it very unlikely.

I think it's more likely that we find spell tomes with specific spell effects, like Fire, Frost, Shock, etc., and then the perks (for Destruction School) are the different delivery methods, like casting on the ground, casting as a spray, exploding like a bomb, etc.

As for Conjuration, Restoration and Alteration skills, I imagine they would have very different perks, so when you find tomes for spell effects like Clairvoyance, Healing, etc., there won't be any perk to cast it on the ground, for example, but perhaps perk that makes the duration longer, the effect more powerful, or multiple conjured creatures in the case of Conjuration.

» Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:20 am

Excellent thought Resistance

in my case however I rather Scrolls for Warriors and Thieve alike who do not dabble terribly in Magick, but have a Modix of skill to use the scrolls for their liking. for mages my ideal thought would be a more invovled system in learning and using the spells.

Well, this is bizzar. In every spellmaking related topic I've posted that same post - I even had a topic about it way back when which didn't get past the first page - but this is the first time people responded to it.

Anyway, I'm coming up with this part on the fly, but perks could make it more involved for mages. Like there would be a perk that allowed you to use soul gems anywhere, letting mages set up shop anywhere they feel like calling home. Mages could set up their home desk with stuff to make it look like that's the place they do research. Or some scroll combinations would fizzle out or explode in your face untill you found a tome that explained a secret way to combine the effects/were taught a secret technique to combine the effects from a master mage.

Expanding on that, Master Trainer mages could grant you perks you couldn't gain otherwise, so they actually felt like your master and they were teaching you something.

Also...maybe a pen that allowed better scrolls to be made. Higher quality paper as well perhaps? Like I said, I'm coming up with this stuff on the fly.

I've never got a reply to my post, let alone a post pointing out a possible flaw...so I've never really thought about a way to make it more invovlved.

Also, bare in mind when you're using the book the related skills would level up rather than enchanting. I would think the enchanting skill would only go up when you make the scroll.