Skyrim - Meaningful Choices

Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:39 am

I certainly don't want membership in one organization effecting membership (and most importantly, quest availability) in others. I don't want to have to be doing wiki research every single time I make a decision to insure that I don't close any doors I'm going to want to be open later. I just want to be able to play and not find myself having to create a new character after learning that my current one can never obtain item X because weeks back he joined organization P which precludes him membership in club C from which item X must be gained.

Choices are only meaningful in a desirable way when you understand the ramifications at the time of making them. The choice to do a few quests for organization P shouldn't shut the door on entire storylines in club C that you may not even be aware exists when you are questing for P. What would be 'meaningful' about that sort of thing?

So who says the consequences have to be a mystery? When the Ice Cream Guild hands you the quill, they may say, "First thing we're gonna want you to do is burn down the headquarters of that doggone Alligator Club. You sure you still wanna sign up?" I couldn't swing a cat in New Vegas without hitting a meaningful consequence, yet I never once felt that they were sprung on me unfairly.
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StunnaLiike FiiFii
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:25 am

So who says the consequences have to be a mystery? When the Ice Cream Guild hands you the quill, they may say, "First thing we're gonna want you to do is burn down the headquarters of that doggone Alligator Club. You sure you still wanna sign up?" I couldn't swing a cat in New Vegas without hitting a meaningful consequence, yet I never once felt that they were sprung on me unfairly.


Unless you know exactly what the Alligator Club has to offer, you don't understand the ramifications of burning that bridge. How many quests are associated with the Alligator Club? How many with the Ice Cream Guild? What do they entail and what rewards do they lead to? In order to weigh the 'meaningful consequences' of choosing one over the other you have to know these things.

New Vegas made me not want to swing cats. I never finished it because I refused to act against a faction I liked at the behest of another. For me, maintaining the status quo was the best ending.

Ultimately, I suspect the point is moot. I imagine the guilds and most factions in Skyrim won't be exclusionary. Even the civil war should have a reunification path that doesn't require choosing sides.
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darnell waddington
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:34 pm

Unless you know exactly what the Alligator Club has to offer, you don't understand the ramifications of burning that bridge. How many quests are associated with the Alligator Club? How many with the Ice Cream Guild? What do they entail and what rewards do they lead to? In order to weigh the 'meaningful consequences' of choosing one over the other you have to know these things.

New Vegas made me not want to swing cats. I never finished it because I refused to act against a faction I liked at the behest of another. For me, maintaining the status quo was the best ending.

That makes sense, and I guess you're entitled to like things that way. Me, I like the opposite. It just feels so toothless by comparison when you can be best friends with everyone. Maintaining the status quo, ech. I want to change the world, not end the game like a 30 minute sitcom, where everything is just as it was at the beginning of the episode. :)

Ultimately, I suspect the point is moot. I imagine the guilds and most factions in Skyrim won't be exclusionary.

Yeah. The overall design was done long ago, and most of the details are pretty well set by now, I imagine. All we can do now is speculate about what we'd like to see.
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Lawrence Armijo
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:12 pm

I agree with the point you made on the guilds it is preposterous that people who claim they role play join and lead every single guild it's not practical and as for meaningful decisions I would only really enjoy this on the side quests not the actual main quest.

It really shouldn't be anyone's concern how others plan to role play. If someone wants to role play someone that delegates major tasks to others and leads multiple guilds that's fine. You don't like it? The answer is quite simple: then don't do it.
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cassy
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:27 pm

It really shouldn't be anyone's concern how others plan to role play. If someone wants to role play someone that delegates major tasks to others and leads multiple guilds that's fine. You don't like it? The answer is quite simple: then don't do it.

I totally agree. Even if it IS stupid to imagine a guy who leads three huge guilds, that's not a reason to take out the option. I never had an Oblivion character who did that. My fighter had no interest in the Mages' Guild, and vice versa. Really I never saw the stupidity of the superman character because I never played one.

There WOULD be a good reason to block the "all guilds" option if there were meaningful relationships and conflicts between the guilds; story reasons you couldn't do everything. That's what I'd like to see to make both my character and the guilds themselves far more interesting.
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helliehexx
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:57 am

For my part, I think becoming the 'leader' of the various guilds is pointless beyond tradition. I just want to do all the quests associated with them. In fact, if I could do them as a mercenary instead of a member, I'd be perfectly happy doing so.

I don't want to have to create a horde of characters to experience the game's content. After the first couple times, starting over gets tedious. In Oblivion, you started in the center of the map and could go in any direction in a new game. That helped, but even then there was a lot of repetition involved. If you wanted access to the arcane university, you had to do all of those recommendation quests each and every time. How many times do you end up rescuing that crazy old lady's rats from the mountain lion?

In New Vegas it was even worse. You started in a corner of the map with only one real direction to go. So you end up following that road from Goodsprings, through Primm, Nipton, Novac etc. over, and over, and over again.

I don't want to have to repeat early stuff over an over again to get to content that had been closed off to me in previous plays because somebody bought into the notion that 'meaninful choices' means that doing A means I couldn't also do B with that character.

If I want to explore all the content of the game I'm going to pay for with one character, it should be my prerogative.
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Andrea P
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:23 pm

For my part, I think becoming the 'leader' of the various guilds is pointless beyond tradition. I just want to do all the quests associated with them. In fact, if I could do them as a mercenary instead of a member, I'd be perfectly happy doing so.

I don't want to have to create a horde of characters to experience the game's content. After the first couple times, starting over gets tedious. In Oblivion, you started in the center of the map and could go in any direction in a new game. That helped, but even then there was a lot of repetition involved. If you wanted access to the arcane university, you had to do all of those recommendation quests each and every time. How many times do you end up rescuing that crazy old lady's rats from the mountain lion?

In New Vegas it was even worse. You started in a corner of the map with only one real direction to go. So you end up following that road from Goodsprings, through Primm, Nipton, Novac etc. over, and over, and over again.

I don't want to have to repeat early stuff over an over again to get to content that had been closed off to me in previous plays because somebody bought into the notion that 'meaninful choices' means that doing A means I couldn't also do B with that character.

If I want to explore all the content of the game I'm going to pay for with one character, it should be my prerogative.


If I understand correctly, you seem to be arguing that because you personally do not intend to play through the game more than once, that all the content should be available, to spare you from the boredom of playing a second or third time.

Would you also want to have some magical means of changing your race, so that you can experience all 10 races and genders during one playthrough?

How about the fact that Radiant Story changes the quests around every time, based on all the variables it tracks during each playthrough? Is rescuing the sister of Lucan the Baker from the clutches of the Witches' Coven of Whiterun in order to receive the Staff of Everscamp really equivalent to rescuing the husband of the Wolf Queen of Solitude from a group of racist nords to receive a magic staff?

Should the level cap be increased to 280 so that you have a chance to experience all the perks during your playthrough?

Should all of these things be eliminated so that you don't feel you missed any content, even though it means that for those of us who intend to play multiple times, that our second, third, fourth playthroughs will be a lot less enjoyable?
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kennedy
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:13 pm

people arguing that you should be able to do everything in one playthrough are just nuts.
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Heather Dawson
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:41 pm

I don't want anything 'eliminated'. You are the one that wants things eliminated. You are the one that wants opening door A to permanantly lock door B. I want them both open and all the others too. Having them open doesn't force you to go through them, but forcing them closed denies me the chance. I'm the one advocating player access and freedom. You want choices to be punitive, punished by reducing future choices.

As to races and genders? Meh. I always play my own gender and with the exception of a single Khajiit character I have never played a character in Daggerfall, Morrowind or Oblivion that wasn't a breton or altmer. All my characters are mage variants and all my builds are similar. For me the game isn't about the character, it's about the world ... which I want open to me.

Might I suggest that those who don't think things like being both a high ranking member of the mages guild and the fighters guild at the same time is appropriate simply restrain themselves to what they think is acceptable and not fret that others may not share their preferences? Nobody is forcing you to tell a story with your copy of the game that you don't want to tell. I for one will not advocate denying others the ability to tell the stories they do want to tell.
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Anna S
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:15 pm

I totally agree. Even if it IS stupid to imagine a guy who leads three huge guilds, that's not a reason to take out the option. I never had an Oblivion character who did that. My fighter had no interest in the Mages' Guild, and vice versa. Really I never saw the stupidity of the superman character because I never played one.

There WOULD be a good reason to block the "all guilds" option if there were meaningful relationships and conflicts between the guilds; story reasons you couldn't do everything. That's what I'd like to see to make both my character and the guilds themselves far more interesting.


Morrowind handled it quite well
Only the Great Houses were exclusive (and even then there was a glitch to join two of them). There were rivalries and conflicts between factions but if you could find a way round the conflicts and justify it to yourself or just didn't care you could join the Mages and the Telvanni etc
If there are Imperial and Rebel factions I'd expect them to be mutually exclusive but I doubt any others will be and I'm fine with that but I'd like some quests for 1 faction to possibly cause you problems with another depending on how you resolved it
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XPidgex Jefferson
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:22 pm

it was silly that in oblivion none of the guild interacted with each other with the exception of when you were in the thieves guild you could steal your own staff if you were head of the mages guild and the game didnt recognize it. :facepalm:

the guilds are in competition with each other for paying work. if your head of the mages guild and the fighters guild how are you going to decide which group to hire out to some paying customer that needs protection without pissing off the other side.

its logical that all the guilds would let you join them so they could at least collect dues from you. it is completely irrational to think that guilds would be ok if you were high in rank in several guilds at once. you can only have one master.

having to do more than one playthrough to experience everything in a game is a good thing. that means that there is content yet to be discovered on my second and third playthroughs. does anyone for a second think that NV would have been have as interesting if CL and NCR didnt show any change in attitude towards the player no matter what you did for either side? would that game have been better if you could finish House, Yes Man, CL and NCRs endings at the damn all at once?
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Quick Draw III
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:55 am

I don't want anything 'eliminated'. You are the one that wants things eliminated. You are the one that wants opening door A to permanantly lock door B. I want them both open and all the others too. Having them open doesn't force you to o through them, but forcing them closed denies me the chance. I'm the one advocating player access and freedom. You want choices to be punitive, punished by reducing future choices.

What you refuse to accept is that you ARE eliminating something. You are eliminating consequence of choice. To you, consequence of choice has no place in a good game. You want to be able to do everything, which I understand. To us, consequence of choice is not only an awesome feature; it's a necessary requirement for any investment in what we're doing. We want our decisions to actually have some kind of impact. When there are no consequences for decisions, they do not matter. Hopefully you can understand our point of view as we understand yours.

Just please don't pretend that you have some sort of moral high ground because you think your vision would cater to everyone; it really, really wouldn't.
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Leilene Nessel
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:34 pm

having to do more than one playthrough to experience everything in a game is a good thing.

The player making that happen himself through thoughtful and creative character design and play is good thing.

you can only have one master.

Good point. A guild isn't going to want to place someone with divided loyalties in a position of power.
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Jerry Jr. Ortiz
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:55 am

The player making that happen himself through thoughtful and creative character design and play is very good thing.

I agree, but it's also nice when the environment actually provides real consequences. I'd like it if I didn't have to imagine that the Alligator Club was mad at me because I burned down their headquarters; I'd like them to actually be mad at me and refuse to hang out any more. You know? Sure, I could just not hang out with them because my character wouldn't, but it doesn't have quite the same -kapow!-
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Yvonne Gruening
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:34 pm

Might I suggest that those who don't think things like being both a high ranking member of the mages guild and the fighters guild at the same time is appropriate simply restrain themselves to what they think is acceptable and not fret that others may not share their preferences? Nobody is forcing you to tell a story with your copy of the game that you don't want to tell. I for one will not advocate denying others the ability to tell the stories they do want to tell.


Keep in mind, there is no more generic mage's guild and fighter's guild, instead we have some non-generic and very specific factions (that hopefully will be in conflict with one another, or with some other faction).

Personally, I have no problem with becoming a high ranking member of the College of Winterhold and a high ranking member of The Companions at the same time, unless those two factions are in the middle of a nasty blood feud, or on opposing sides of the battlefield in the Civil War, in which case, it wouldn't make sense, and we would not have the freedom of choice to fully commit to one side of the conflict or the other.
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Floor Punch
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:58 pm

i'd really like to see something like goes in the movie "the departed." like im in guild A sent to join and spy/ report on guild B. while guild B is doing the same thing to guild A. and the player would have to pick sides. i.e. help the snitch or hunt him out and expose him for the spy he is.
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Sophie Louise Edge
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:42 pm

The player making that happen himself through thoughtful and creative character design and play is very good thing.



no its not.

one of the best things about NV is that you can side with pretty much anyone in that game. you can save goodsprings or join the powder gangers. join NCR or Mr House or CL or do it yourself with Mr YesMan. you can choose your sides and the react in a logical manner. if you save goodsprings that means you pissed of the powerder gangers and you can no longer join them. thats who it would happen in the real world so it makes more sense that it should happen in the politics of the game itself. if you run around helping the mages guild and join the fighters guild they might not have a problem with you simply being a rank and file guy with no real impact on them but they are not going to tolerate someone who isnt 100% dedicated to their guild becoming someone with influence and power. they should be expected to question where your true loyalties are.

the game makes much more sense when the guild interact with each other isntead of how oblivion was where the guilds were essentially living in little bubbles. manimarco is supposed to be the bringer of doom and gloom and the way they were talking him up it he was even worse sounding than mehrunes dagon.......yet only the mages guild and no one else was worried about his return. apparently the legion didnt care, neither did the fighters guild or thieves guild or even the dark brotherhood who i would think would have serious issues with manimarco returning. that kind of poor writing and interaction is just crappy looking. and imagination is only gets you so far.

if imagination was the end all be all of making games good then there would be no bad games. after all you could just imagine the bad parts away and replace them with better things in you mind. imagination is not a band aid that fixes everything. something simply have to exist in the game itself there is no getting around it.
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Eileen Collinson
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:47 am

The last thing I want in Skyrim is the psychic factions of New Vegas. Kill one of Ceasar's goons in the deep desert and all the sudden your infamy with the entire Legion increases in spite of the lack of witnesses. I didn't find the New Vegas system the least bit realistic. It was no different than those psychic guards everyone makes so much fun of in Oblivion.

Even in those situations where one joinable faction pits you against another, it should be possible to throw on a mask and do the task anonymously so that the targeted faction doesn't know it was you who were the cause of their problems in the first place. There should always be a way to successfully complete any faction vs. faction quest objective in a manner that preserves your options with both factions, even if you have to be clever to do it. I'd much rather see 'meaningful consequences' associated with bad decisions and poor planning than simply who your allies are and what factions you are a member of. I may not even choose to tell the Companions I'm a member of the College, nor should they automatically know. Not like I'm wearing that ugly olive green robe or anything.

I'm all for depth, just not arbitrary restrictions.
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JeSsy ArEllano
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:09 pm

The last thing I want in Skyrim is the psychic factions of New Vegas. Kill one of Ceasar's goons in the deep desert and all the sudden your infamy with the entire Legion increases in spite of the lack of witnesses. I didn't find the New Vegas system the least bit realistic. It was no different than those psychic guards everyone makes so much fun of in Oblivion.

Even in those situations where one joinable faction pits you against another, it should be possible to throw on a mask and do the task anonymously so that the targeted faction doesn't know it was you who were the cause of their problems in the first place. There should always be a way to successfully complete any faction vs. faction quest objective in a manner that preserves your options with both factions, even if you have to be clever to do it. I'd much rather see 'meaningful consequences' associated with bad decisions and poor planning than simply who your allies are and what factions you are a member of. I may not even choose to tell the Companions I'm a member of the College, nor should they automatically know. Not like I'm wearing that ugly olive green robe or anything.

I'm all for depth, just not arbitrary restrictions.



NV factions werent psychic. you could kill as many of whoever you wanted as long as noone spotted you. once they spotted you then you lost karma immediately and you could argue whether they should have sent one of the party running to warn someone but that would require alot of AI coding i would imagine. it certainly wasnt psychic though and much better than oblivions.

NV also had disguises that let you perform quests you would not normally be able to perform if you pissed off the faction earlier. you could walk into CL with CL armor and as long as certian specific guards didnt spot you, you were fine. did you even play the game or did you just give up after 5 minutes cause clearly you didnt play it very long.

you are also making the assumption that your character is the only one capable of following someone. it makes sense that factions are going to have spies and agents everywhere and you are not going to be aware of them. hell even in oblivion the goofy faction had operatives all over that you werent aware of until they tried to assassinate you later on in the main quest. why would you assume that you are aware of who is watching you all the time in skyrim as well?
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Samantha Mitchell
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:38 pm

Interesting, so you're proposing a sort of minimum skill requirement to begin training as a mage, for example, or something along those lines?


Morrowind had this sort of system in place already. If you did not possess the appropriate skills then you could not advance in rank. I think they should keep that in place for Skyrim, otherwise we'll have another arch-mage who can't cast a single spell.
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josie treuberg
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:56 am

Morrowind had this sort of system in place already. If you did not possess the appropriate skills then you could not advance in rank. I think they should keep that in place for Skyrim, otherwise we'll have another arch-mage who can't cast a single spell.



even better they should do it like lingwe's choices and consequences did it. you actually had to go in front of a trainer and cast levelled spells in order to prove yourself. i really hope bethesda looked at that mod cause it improved the game in so many different ways.
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Chelsea Head
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:58 pm

Even in those situations where one joinable faction pits you against another, it should be possible to throw on a mask and do the task anonymously so that the targeted faction doesn't know it was you who were the cause of their problems in the first place. There should always be a way to successfully complete any faction vs. faction quest objective in a manner that preserves your options with both factions, even if you have to be clever to do it. I'd much rather see 'meaningful consequences' associated with bad decisions and poor planning than simply who your allies are and what factions you are a member of. I may not even choose to tell the Companions I'm a member of the College, nor should they automatically know. Not like I'm wearing that ugly olive green robe or anything.

I'm all for depth, just not arbitrary restrictions.

I love where you are going with this. :)
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Sammykins
 
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Post » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:37 am

even better they should do it like lingwe's choices and consequences did it. you actually had to go in front of a trainer and cast levelled spells in order to prove yourself. i really hope bethesda looked at that mod cause it improved the game in so many different ways.

It would be for the best.

I want to see what my character can (and can not) do, and see what he has developed into, and his powers and weakness.

Those powers and weaknesses should dictate what he can do and can not, and where he can join and can not.

And those characteristics is what I chose to be, and what is my role in Skyrim.

Or in better words, my chosen role model, dictated me to develop my character in this specialized wad, and the consequences of my specialization made me better at some things and worse at others, which should open some doors for me and close some others.

I would probably play as another role the next time to see what I have missed in the previous game, and so on...
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Dylan Markese
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:45 pm

I agree, but it's also nice when the environment actually provides real consequences. I'd like it if I didn't have to imagine that the Alligator Club was mad at me because I burned down their headquarters; I'd like them to actually be mad at me and refuse to hang out any more. You know? Sure, I could just not hang out with them because my character wouldn't, but it doesn't have quite the same -kapow!-

Yes, definitely. If a reasonable restriction is not enforced by a guild, then I wouldn't pretend that there is such a restriction. Instead, I might seek to place an alternative, equally-limiting restriction into my character's personality. Even a very power-hungry character, from personal taste or prejudice, might not want to be master of more than a single guild.

If there is a reasonable restriction for the game to make, then I would prefer the game make it. I don't want to have to refuse guild assignments to avoid becoming the guild master. I don't want to automatically receive the rank of guild master when I haven't applied for it or even expressed an interest in it, or when I haven't demonstrated any particular talent in the skills of the trade. I want guild master rank to come from the choice to become guild master, the choice to master the necessary skills, and the choice to follow whatever procedures the guild sets as conditions for becoming guild master.
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Solène We
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:56 pm

i also think that there should be the option NOT to choose. if i dont want to choose a side why should i have to?


This is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen this implemented before.
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courtnay
 
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