Hey guys! Time to discuss. Be warned, however, that this is a mature forum, and any nonsensical or flame-inducing comments will not be tolerated. At the same time, feel free to disagree with anything I say, and (constructively) criticize away!

I'm American, and I've found that part of being a good citizen is realizing that your country isn't perfect. As you all know, my home wasn't always the "land of the free". The Civil War, also oddly titled the War Between the States, was a massive movement in the country. It represented our shift from ignorance to realization, isolationism to universal awareness. Those who wished to retain the ways of old---the pro-slavery South---did all they could to protect their traditions (the cotton industry, which was fueled by slave labor). They even went so far as to secede from the United States. At that moment, my nation was divided. Not even in these dark times can we say that our nation is split in two, at war with itself. The American Civil War was our darkest hour, one in which brothers killed brothers, families split in two, ideals clashed and leaders assassinated.

In Skyrim, players will supposedly experience a similar crisis: a civil war in its own in which two sides, those who favor Imperial rule and those who don't, spill blood from the rivers to the mountains of the Nord homeland. Players will obviously choose a faction, pick a side, and decide the outcome of one of the most violent events in Tamriel's history.

Skyrim is a gem in it's own right. It was the place where man first set foot in Tamriel; where the human tribes dispersed into a variety of races, such as the Breton, Nord, and Imperial. Those who stayed, the Nords, established their own claims, while the future Imperials moved on into Cyrodill. The Septim dynasty, leading all the way up into The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, represented America in retrospect: a variety of cultures, but each identifying with a common nationality. Where this led to, however, was neglect. Though they came from the same location, shared the same blood, Nords have found themselves alone in the now-divided Tamriel.

The Elder Scrolls universe is growing up, in a sense.

The civil war raging in Skyrim will most likely resemble many of the aspects of America's own civil war. Though there are two sides, Skyrim will probably house a variety of factions, each with their own political interests. Some factions, such as the Dark Brotherhood, will use the civil war as a way of exposing weak spots in Skyrim's royal circle. Others, the more traditional clans, will have a clearer mindset: Kill the Imperial supporter, defend the Nordic identity.

Let's discuss this issue and how it relates to the lore and our own world's history. Which side would you pick? Why would you pick that side? Do you see a "civil war" as fitting for the Elder Scrolls universe? And, arguably the most important question: What does the civil war, and consequently Alduin's return, signal for Tamriel and it's people? Will we have a more divided world, or a more unified one?

And what the heck does "unification", "peace", and "national identity" mean in your eyes? Are Nords really at peace by shielding themselves from exterior forces, or does this isolate them from possible friendships?

:shrug:

Well, I have my own opinions, and the opinion of my fictional roleplaying character lol.

My opinion: I believe the empire is destined to collapse. I strongly suspect Alduin is, quite literally, the destroyer aspect of the broad god of time archetype, and will, again literally, come to devour the world (end time, and start all over.) By stopping this - assuming we do - I believe we will be altering the universe as a whole, possibly triggering another Dragon Break (or something even more profound.) For all I know, defeating Alduin may very well be what destroys the world. But even if the world is saved, I believe it will be irrevocably altered, and I strongly suspect the empire will not be a part of it anymore. I think the provinces, for better or worse, will be on their own. So with that said, I support Skyrim's independence. However, that doesn't mean - to my mind, at least - that they have to be strictly isolationist. Their border wars with Vvardenfell (which may or may not persist now that the Argonians have conquered it,) Hammerfell, and Highrock, however, would seem to indicate that they maintain hegemonic aspirations of their own. So while I do believe that a united, independent Skyrim can coexist peacefully with the other provinces, I suspect their long and bloody history will, sadly, continue to be just that.

My character's opinion: The empire can no longer protect its borders, let alone the outlying provinces. I come from a land torn apart by haughty god-men and politics. And now that land is infested with those damned lizards. *Shudders.* I've worked hard to carve out a life for myself here in Skyrim, and as I see it, the best way to maintain that life is for Skyrim to keep itself safe and sound. Without the weakening empire. (Heh. WHAT empire? Cyrodiil alone an empire does not make, I say!) To hell with the Imperials. Let Skyrim stand on its own two feet. Besides... they say the old dragon may be stopping by for supper, soon. And I'd like to see this land united to face it, if it does

I would compare Oblivion's empire to the Roman Empire, not America, who apparently don't actually have an empire. Just foreign policy. As for the civil war, I think that the British civil war, the roundheads against the royalist cavaliers would be a more apt comparison. :thumbsup:

I just started reading the Game of Thrones series (A Song of Ice and Fire) by George R R Martin, and the deeper I'm getting in the story, the more parallels I see with Skyrim

(1) civil war

(2) dragons have been gone from the world for centuries, but they make a return

(3) a lineage of kings called "dragonlords" with some sort of dragon blood

(4) Winterfell, a cold kingdom in the North, almost always in winter conditions and populated by a hardy people

(5) execution at the start of the book

(6) mammoths!

I just wonder how much of a direct affect that we, as the PC, will have an affect on which side "wins" or "loses" the civil war in the game. And whether it will be part of the main quest or maybe faction quests. It will be interesting to see.

You put that a hell of a lot more romantically than I would have put it.

I would have said "The American Civil War was massive catastrophe brought about by the egos, immense stubbornness, and petty rivalries displayed by an array of exasperatingly inept leaders in a setting where power was slowly transitioning away from rural areas where it was in the hands of land-owners to urban areas where it would be scooped up by the new educated elite of the industrial age. Underpinning all of this is of course the question of slavery, the always shaky foundation (any system built upon oppression is shaky) of the South, being targeted by an ascendant North just as the South was feeling weak and vulnerable from years of economic decline. A threat to which the South over-reacted violently to in a desperate attempt to keep itself from imploding."

For those who thought TLDNR, read:

Disaster waiting to happen. Power transition. Blundering. Huge catastrophe. Things return to normal as best as they can afterward. The End.

Simple, amirite? :violin:

I didn't read much of that but the start by the way, no disrespect. You have the usual view of the Civil War and the American glorification of the end product of it. The Union wasn't/isn't as noble as might be thought. Funny enough the Confederates were more open to abolishing slavery than Lincoln himself was(One of my favorite presidents by the way.)

The war was really about both the higher judgement and snark from Europe, with many nations there getting or gotten rid of slavery, mixed with an effective transfer of power from the individual states to the federal government at the end of it. Or atleast that was the list of goals for the Union that were met. The war was "officially" started when the south seceded though

They incited a war over their right to preserve slavery as an institution though. If Lincoln was less open than that, what would he have done? Oh...right....

BUT I DO BELIEVE WE ARE OFF TOPIC SOMEWHAT.

*ahem*

I think the American Civil War is a poor example here. Instead (if we are to stay within American history) might I point interested parties to the Creek War (aka the Creek Civil War, the Red Stick War) where the Creek nation was divided over whether or not to accept the Euro-American ways of the United States, or to maintain their traditional Creek culture instead. The northern Creek were proponents who were calling their brethren to reject the white man's ways and to return to the traditional ways of their ancestors, while the southern Creek were supportive of a close alliance with the United States.

Sound familiar enough?

Although the U.S. did become involved in this war. Anyone think the Empire will become involved in the Skyrim civil war? Will they provide material support? Or do you think the Empire is far too weak to do anything beyond Bruma?

The comparison to the American civil war is disappointing. There are similarities, but they are superficial.


For those who want to place Skyrim's civil war in perspective, I suggest Redguard's exposition. The conflict between Septim-allied Forbears and Crowns could mirror V's sub-plot, quite closely. Of course, Cyrus' apotheosis will parallel our own, too.

Agreed, on both the American civil war being a not-quite-apt anology as well as the potential similarities with Redguard.

Anyhoo, while civil war is a tragedy (my country, Spain, had one of the most horrific in all history), I think there are vital points at stake.

I understand most people's arguments for the independence of Skyrim and the emancipation of the citizens of the Empire, but I remain pro-Imperial for the simple fact that they bring peace, prosperity and law across the land. Where once we had Nords invading High Rock and Hammerfell every few years, countless wars of succession and numerous tiny kingdoms in High Rock and Skyrim, and Aldmer with ambitions over their fellow mer in Valenwood, in Morrowind and Oblivion (the games) we had a continent-wide Empire that brought peace and stability to the land, fostered economic activity and general trade between provinces and established firm and generally fair Imperial law through relatively non-intrusive Legion forts.

Now for many that may be too uncomfortably similiar to a military occupation, but in my eyes it's a necessary evil in a continent widely divded and used to millenia of strife, and generally a small price to pay for the peace brought about by foreign legions. As for the arguments about the annexation being not just military but cultural, I say poppycock. Using the example of Morrowind, yes there were Forts strewn across the land and yes they included temples of the Nine. But really, such cults were more for foreigners and outlanders than locals; they were never forced on the locals. it was never an unfair imposition of imperial culture on an unwilling population. Not only was their local religion respected with every temple preserved, but even the province's native power strucutre was left untouched. This semi-independence also extended to slavery, which though generally frowned upon by the Empire was left untampered with because the Imperials recognised and respected its importance to Dunmer culture and existence (despite the horrible institution that it was and is). The only real political difference brought about by the empire was the rise of House Hlaalu, and I say that was a good thing in order to break the monopoly over power held by the Tribunal and it's favoured houses.

As for economic oppression, bah. Some basic tax (which you'll pay regardless of who's in charge) and a few mining contracts here and there aren't exactly repression; tax will exist and yes they will return back to the imperial province but funding is needed for those imperial armies maintaining the peace in your province. Imperial contracters, such as the East Empire Company and the miners at Caldera, aren't exactly exploiting the local population but rather collaborating with locals who are open to negotiation (in this case, House Hlaalu). Locals who work with the Empire stand to get rich whilst enjoying the protection of the Legions, even as they're left to follow their ancient ways, both religious and political. That doesn't exactly sound atrocious to me.

Also, more 'negative' (such a vague term :unsure: ) aspects of society, such as the exploitation of Khajiit addiction to moonsugar and skooma, and the general practice of Necromany* were cracked down or at the very least discouraged thanks to the Empire. This imperial presence isn't exactly "sixually assaulting" locals and burning babies at the stake; I rather see them as a positive presence and I think many people don't realise the benefits of the Empire. That's why I think all this hate towards it is a bit exaggerated if not unjustified. But of course I'm overlooking the aspects of national independence and sovereignty and I'm sure someone will point it out to me :happy:

*I don't think it was ever fully banned, but general disapproval toward Necromancy must have spread via the Empire and led to its decline. I'm open to correction on this if someone is willing to elaborate.

Anyway, I'll just use the state of Tamriel before and after the collapse of the Empire as a main argument for its existence.

Before - continent wide peace, mostly free trade (although there was the Summerset blockade), law and order, no different warring factions vying for power and hurting the civilian population in the process... the Pax Septima if you will.

After - Cyrodil disintegrates completely, left to the mercy of warlords; the Argonians of Black Marsh exploit the devastation of of Vvardenfell and invade mainland Morrowind with no-one to stop them, causing Dunmer to flee their own country in a mass exodus; the Altmer of Summerset Isles seek to recreate the Aldmeri Dominion by invading Valenwood and conquering their Bosmer cousins; Elsewyr dissolves into complete chaos and anarchy after the Great Mane is assassinated; a rebellion presumably breaks out in Skyrim which leads to a civil war of imperial loyalists fighting secessionists. In short, things aren't pretty :ermm:

And I'm pretty sure that if the Empire is destroyed completely, as so many here seem to desire, then Tamriel will further sink into war, conflict, racism, slavery, crime, brutality and general decadence. A Tamrielic equivalent of the Dark Ages, if you will :nope:

And that is why I will join the imperialist faction.

TL;DR; people demonise the Empire without recognising it's positive impact on Tamriel, and a return to division is equal to a return to war, strife, poverty and other malign aspects prevalent in a state of anarchy.

All of that is very well explained when you realize that much of those were a result of the terms the Empire accepted when Morrowind agreed to join. If Morrowind had been fully conquered, slavery would have certainly been abolished, Imperial culture may well have been forced onto the Dunmer much more vigorously, and most likely they would have attempted to dismantle the Temple. All these things of course, would have been near impossible and counter-productive to attempt, which is why the move by the Empire to accept the terms was beneficial, to both parties.

While the Empire does serve to unite Tamriel, Morrowind is not a good example of its rule. Each province has a different amount of control that the Empire exerts and the way the people react to it, so that we will only know the situation once we have seen it in Skyrim ourselves.

As well, the civil war in Skyrim is not only about who wants to remain with the Empire and who wants to secede, but likely about who will rule Skyrim next. Unlike the American Civil War, Skyrim is not attempting to split itself into two. The Rebels are attempting to secede whole from the Empire, but not from the rest of Skyrim. I am sure the issues are not so clear cut as "do you think we should be with the Empire or not?" I'll have to judge the situation once I have experienced it before I decide. Currently I am leaning more towards the Empire, but only because I believe Tamriel is stronger united, even if oppressed. It is better to change oppression from within than to secede and become smaller, in my personal opinion.

The American Civil War is a terrible example, the reasons, the situation, and the assumed end goal are very much different. If anything the American Colonies' Revolutionary War, to "secede" from the British Empire, is probably going to be a closer match for the situation, but I wouldn't presume to draw to many parallels with that either.

My main counter argument to support of the Empire - at least post-Oblivion - is simply its state of decline. The Empire's inability to deal with any of the crises that followed the end of the Septim dynasty raises a few questions in my mind. Firstly, is the new Imperial line impotent to deal with these issues, or simply more interested in using their remaining resources to keep a hold on the throne? Secondly, is there any benefit to the people of Skyrim in remaining shackled to a crumbling nation, either incapable of securing the other provinces or simply disinterested in doing so?