Skyrim is a poor RPG : V - Skyrim

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:01 pm

Um, no. Skyrim requires a pretty hefty time investment to do almost anything. By your definition Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc. are all casual games.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age II are casual games. Pick up and go, play in short bursts, no complex gameplay.

A casual gamer is one who doesn't get invested in games or play them much at all

Hence why the simplistic gameplay of Skyrim, Mass Effect, CoD etc appeal to them. They don't have to invest anything. You can pick up those games and progress in short bursts and you won't forget how they play or what to do or where to go.

Extremely simple gameplay, - check
Allowing gameplay in short bursts, during work breaks - check
The ability to quickly reach a final stage, or continuous play with no need to save the game - check, autosaving every few minutes, and when you enter or exit a building

The word "casual" indicates that the games are produced for the casual consumer, who comes across the game and can get into gameplay almost immediately.

Agree, and that's what Skyrim, ME, CoD etc all do, and I have casual gaming friends who play these for those specific reasons.

Managing an inventory, buying and selling, crafting, looting, exploring, perks, magic...really? Nothing to learn if someone who's never played games picked up Skyrim?

Hah, "Managing an inventory." Button shows up on the screen: "Press R to drop item." Yeah, there's some advanced inventory management alright. Skyrim hand holds the user every step of the way, there's nothing to "learn," it's all spelled out on the screen. And that's purposefully done by design, because they're targeting casual players.

Yes, it does. You are simply too focused on the technological side to see it.

But alas, that is the typical PC gamer.

Mhm, you just don't understand what's behind the actions of the game. The AI is not complex, and AI with depth does take processing power. And guess what, AI is the technological side.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:19 am

I love how terrible arguements get squashed so easily, and the posters change what they're saying or never come back.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:47 pm

Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down, Skyrim is streamlined.

I would even disagree with that. ME2, in my opinion, was not "dumbed down". In the sequel they just got rid of some of the crap that everyone had already done in ME1 like that ridiculous inventory. Nothing in ME1 took all that much smarts. It was just ricken CUMBERSOME.

That wasn't a dumb down, it was the epitome of streamlining IMO.

I guess one could argue that Skyrim has been dumbed down but whatever. I played Oblivion and once again didn't feel it took all that many neurons to complete. Same with Morrowind.

I don't feel particularly "smart" for completing any of these games because mentally, they're just not all that difficult. So the hysterical shrieking over this "dumbing down" is mostly lost on me.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:24 am

I love how terrible arguements get squashed so easily

Like yours just was.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 pm

Yay for PC elitism!

If I had room I'd ad that Ro the forum drinking game.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:52 pm

PC gamer - someone who plays games on a PC.
Console gamer - someone who plays games on a console.

Difference? Hardware.

Casual gamer - someone who plays casually.

Nothing to do with intelligence, tastes etc, but then that would ruin arguements like this.

Stop ruining perfectly good nerd rage hysterics with rational statements and common sense.

That has no place here.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:51 pm

Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down, Skyrim is streamlined.

The funny thing about this statement though is that one game became much funner to play, while the other offered less and still had the terrible gameplay as all of the previous iterations of the series.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:54 pm

Mhm, you just don't understand what's behind the actions of the game. The AI is not complex, and AI with depth does take processing power. And guess what, AI is the technological side.

Yet I can think of few games in recent years that have provider better enemy A.I., especially as far as stealth is concerned. If it's so tied to technological limits, why is this? :whistling:

Hell, why am I arguing this with someone that thinks Skyrim is a "casual" game? It's pretty blatant you have no idea what's actually important when it comes to game development.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:48 am

Yay for PC elitism!

If I had room I'd ad that Ro the forum drinking game.

It's coming from both sides, yet neither will realise the hardware is the only difference between them (really it is the only difference both sides are using the same arguements just exchanging console and PC in their sentences), and their mortal enemies that own that other piece of hardware!

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:20 am

Yet I can think of few games in recent years that have provider better enemy A.I., especially as far as stealth is concerned. If it's so tied to technological limits, why is this? :whistling:

Hell, why am I arguing this with someone that thinks Skyrim is a "casual" game? It's pretty blatant you have no idea what's actually important when it comes to game development.

The Hitman and Splinter Cell series had good AI for stealth, well up to Chaos Theory at least.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:15 pm

The Hitman and Splinter Cell series had good AI for stealth, well up to Chaos Theory at least.

This only supports my argument considering both of those series are relatively old.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:29 am

You also have to realize this as well, and it does come to factor in age and maturity as well. While I don't like generalizing, when I went to the midnight launch of Skyrim. A lot of the people who were there were young kids, telling me MW3 was going to get Game of the Year. Basically most of them were out there to Play A Game and be done with it. And a lot of the people praising MW3 were kids. Granted I'm only in my twenties, but kids are younger than me and they behave like kids.

I wish I could find it an article about this. But they talk about how a casual mainstream fanbase is screaming over the true hardcoe fans in droves. I have no problem with the mainstream casual gamers, but when they begin to leak into games I have thoroughly enjoyed and turn them into something they are not then it kind of is sad in a way. It's like watching your favorite thing become sick almost. To be honest I liked Morrowind, like everyone else did. All though a lot of people claim Oblivion to be for the casual mainstream, I thoroughly enjoyed it a little more than Morrowind. One reason though that usually wins me over is character customization.

I play Western RPGs, have always liked Western RPGs for that one reason character customization. I like building my own characters and being my own character. But I haven't been really interested in the hybrid Western "RPGs" such as Mass Effect. I call them Hybrids because it is a character someone else built and you're being asked to fill the role. It's a pseudo character. It's basically like if Halo was a RPG. I'm worried for the business of RPG because I have always enjoyed them the way they are.

Dragon Age Origins was probably the most extreme form of this business changing. DAO was great. Not TES great. But it really had all the classic elements that RPGs held. It really showed that a game could possibly live up to this new generation. It was a rare jewel in this new market. And then DA2 came out and many of the fans of DAO called outrage. They were slighted. Bioware just took a dump all over their fans to appeal to this more mainstream and casual game generation.

The day TES gets a Voice acted main character is the day TES dies, imo. I have always given my characters my own voices. I have always imagined what they sounded like. I didn't need a paid and hired voice actor to tell me what my character should sound like.

I also wish that TES would standup and live to what DAO lived up to. And that's making great classic style RPGs with hints of modern elements. Go back to appealing to their original fanbase. They don't need MW3 and COD lovers to love TES too.

No I did not forget that but I did not mention it. I made broad statements to young timmys and all the other casuals out there who want quick completion. I remember when movies gave you 2 or more hours instead of being lucky to get 2 hours for 10 bucks as it is now. I agree with all of what you have said.

I am just doing a direct voicing at certain targets and neglecting exceptions and people who do not fit into that category I am firing away at. My problem is on the whole mainstream/casuals are influencing games overall in the fact that I remember when it used to take me weeks to beat a game (play time) and not less then 24-48 hours. I mean I loved Darksiders and Dead Space 1/2 but the fact I can beat them so easily makes me sad. I beat all difficulties in DS2 in under 48 hours. Its the issue of content + quality being beat out by time spent making content vs money to be made.

The fact that games like CoD with the same things repeated over and over again with slight variations make the most money seems to force companies to put out smaller content to keep their cash flow running. Its the issue of time = money and the fact that to make money in games less time must be spent which = less content/bang for your buck.

I bought Rage and I love it but overall it has not seemed to get much in the way of sales overall. Zelda and Mario have stayed true to their roots (for the most part) while we look at Sonic trying to splinter away from what we first knew has caused them more trouble than what it was worth going away from the status quo for Sonic.

At the same time we need new innovation and experiences but the balance with older games can be a delicate thing. Just like what we expect from game types we have played in the past. I enjoy a lot of games out there on the whole but I am also upset at the price tag for what I am getting compared to what I used to get for the proper price comparison for the times.

Replay value is becoming a harder thing to capture now a days it seems as well. I have a lot of games I go back and play but I feel kinda bad that when it comes to FF X-2 and up I cannot find a reason to play it again like I can still go back and enjoy FF9 etc.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:11 pm

PC Gamer, I've played both early PC (Diablo 2, Warcraft 3, Age of Empire, etc.) to consoles (Halo, Call of Duty, Gears of War, etc.) to modern PC (World of Warcraft, StarCraft 2, Witcher 2, etc.).

Skyrim does not svck and is worthy to be a PC game even though it is cross platformed. Sure there are some issues with the game currently (hotkeying, minor graphic glitches, broken quests, etc.) but like everything the negatives are blown out of proportion and the positives are seldom recognized.

I might be biased with Blizzard titles such as Diablo, Warcraft, and StarCraft but said issues currently are going to be fixed, either in a patch or by the modding community. While of course we shouldn't have to rely on the modding community to fix the game, anyone can still play Skyrim to the fullest even with these issues, it's not breaking the game in anyway just a tad irritating.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:55 pm

The thread's title holds a good point.

Sadly OPs post puts the blame onto console gamers in the first sentence and I can thus not take it seriously.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:11 am

It's called selling out. For example BF3. Great franchise now dead because of console. That's where my hate truly comes from.

Your hate is unnecessary and misguided. Hate something more relevant like cancer or child-abuse.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:14 pm

Skyrim is a very fun and well-made game in my opinion, and I enjoy role-playing in it. So whether or not it is "good" is both subjective, and irrelevant to me.

A lot of flaws in Skyrim are annoying, and it is angering to think they will only be fixed by mods, but even still it's one of the best pc games I've ever purchased.

Pen and paper inspired PC rpg's with depth and complexity are truly dead. No developer will ever invest in something that is that difficult for the average gamer, unfortunately, so just accept it- or become a developer and make it yourself. Hell, at least the genre still exists even in a dumbed down form, single player space-sims (like Wing Commander) and deep strategy games are dead forever.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:55 pm

Hell, why am I arguing this with someone that thinks Skyrim is a "casual" game? It's pretty blatant you have no idea what's actually important when it comes to game development.

It's pretty clear that you don't have any idea either. Because it's all about the Benjamins. It seems like the people that keep insisting that consolitis is not the cause for many of the "dumbing down" of games have extremely short memories, or are just incapable of understanding or even seeing trends.

It's coming from both sides, yet neither will realise the hardware is the only difference between them (really it is the only difference both sides are using the same arguements just exchanging console and PC in their sentences), and their mortal enemies that own that other piece of hardware!

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

Case in point: Morrowind.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:14 am

No I did not forget that but I did not mention it. I made broad statements to young timmys and all the other casuals out there who want quick completion. I remember when movies gave you 2 or more hours instead of being lucky to get 2 hours for 10 bucks as it is now. I agree with all of what you have said.

I am just doing a direct voicing at certain targets and neglecting exceptions and people who do not fit into that category I am firing away at. My problem is on the whole mainstream/casuals are influencing games overall in the fact that I remember when it used to take me weeks to beat a game (play time) and not less then 24-48 hours. I mean I loved Darksiders and Dead Space 1/2 but the fact I can beat them so easily makes me sad. I beat all difficulties in DS2 in under 48 hours. Its the issue of content + quality being beat out by contents worth vs money.

The fact that games like CoD with the same things repeated over and over again with slight variations make the most money seems to force companies to put out smaller content to keep their cash flow running. Its the issue of time = money and the fact that to make money in games less time must be spent which = less content/bang for your buck.

I bought Rage and I love it but overall it has not seemed to get much in the way of sales overall. Zelda and Mario have stayed true to their roots (for the most part) while we look at Sonic trying to splinter away from what we first knew has caused them more trouble than what it was worth going away from the status quo for Sonic.

At the same time we need new innovation and experiences but the balance with older games can be a delicate thing. Just like what we expect from game types we have played in the past. I enjoy a lot of games out there on the whole but I am also upset at the price tag for what I am getting compared to what I used to get for the proper price comparison for the times.

Replay value is becoming a harder thing to capture now a days it seems as well. I have a lot of games I go back and play but I feel kinda bad that when it comes to FF X-2 and up I cannot find a reason to play it again like I can still go back and enjoy FF9 etc.

you torture my knees :bowdown:

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:28 am

The funny thing about this statement though is that one game became much funner to play, while the other offered less and still had the terrible gameplay as all of the previous iterations of the series.

That's actually a fair point. I can't think of any more pure fun I've had than ME2 decked out with all the DLC.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:36 am

I love how terrible arguements get squashed so easily, and the posters change what they're saying or never come back.

Pretty much. I'm taking it that's why you don't have a response.

Yet I can think of few games in recent years that have provider better enemy A.I., especially as far as stealth is concerned. If it's so tied to technological limits, why is this? :whistling:

Hell, why am I arguing this with someone that thinks Skyrim is a "casual" game? It's pretty blatant you have no idea what's actually important when it comes to game development.

You being impressed by what you see, and AI which accomplishes what that game needed doesn't equal complex AI. Hell, why are you arguing? You're obviously not someone who has programming experiences and can interpret and break down what you see happening on the screen, and are neither someone who has taken an interest in the technical side of game development. You're just a kid who's wowed by what they see and assumes something amazing behind the scenes and doesn't like to hear otherwise. So you think a PS1 presented the most complex AI, and that AI never requires more processing power than the PS1. That really says it all.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:52 am

It's coming from both sides, yet neither will realise the hardware is the only difference between them (really it is the only difference both sides are using the same arguements just exchanging console and PC in their sentences), and their mortal enemies that own that other piece of hardware!

Ah, ok then....

Yay for elitism! :yay:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:55 pm

It has nothing to do with being dumbed down for x-box users. It is in no way dumbed down, and wouldn't need to be for xbox users. Please refrain from format-bashing!

Not true.. have you seen half of the luddites that use consoles? EVERYTHING has to be dumbed down for consoles because of it's lowest common denominator user base.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:18 pm

PC gamer - someone who plays games on a PC.
Console gamer - someone who plays games on a console.

Difference? Hardware.

Casual gamer - someone who plays casually.

Nothing to do with intelligence, tastes etc, but then that would ruin arguements like this.

Yay someone else gets it.

There is nothing inherently casual about consoles.
Some of the most hardcoe games ever made are console exclusive, I'd argue the most hardcoe game this year was console exclusive that being Dark Souls. No Quest markers, Minimalist tutorial, No hand holding, opening the inventory doesn't pause the game, utterly merciless but extremely rewarding

Conversely the most casual of causal games are PC exclusive, can't get farmville on my 360.

Am currently playing Skyrim on my PC, also rocking a 360, a PS2, a N64, a SNES, and a NES. Even though my console games library massively out number my PC's i'd take exception to being called a casual gamer.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:31 pm

Not true.. have you seen half of the luddites that use consoles? EVERYTHING has to be dumbed down for consoles because of it's lowest common denominator user base.

are u dumb?

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:47 pm

Not true.. have you seen half of the luddites that use consoles? EVERYTHING has to be dumbed down for consoles because of it's lowest common denominator user base.

Explain Dark Souls then?