Who else is afraid of Skyrim being too simple, game mechanics not graphic/animation. I LOVED Morrowind because of how complex it was with its crafting system and vast amount of items and unique items, etc. I also LOVED Oblivion but felt some things were downgraded such as the armor system where shoulders/pauldrons were no longer a standalone item along with the clothes which only came in one full set as one item plus couldn't be worn underneath your armor (robes couldn't be worn over armor) and other things of that nature. But as I have heard and read that spell-crafting is basically nixed, only a set of about 80 spells available to the player in Skyrim?? I hope this has changed because I absolutely loved spell-crafting and all the crafting systems because of their complexity and infinite possibilities. Basically my main concern is Bethesda trying to over-simplify Skyrim in some areas, areas which I deem a huge part of Elderscrolls and part of what made it so awesome. Anybody else share some of the same thoughts?

I agree somewhat.

It seems like the trend, and one I don't like.
Skyrim has shown some hope, such as the new combat, and new stuff like smithing sounds cool.
But it has some downs, like the current assumption that they removed spellmaking, and less skills (which is bad to me)

Be careful, you could another Oblivion vs Morrowind war...

I think that Skyrim is being enhanced with simplicity. It seems to be getting rid of a lot of the redundancy.

Not me. You can worry all you want, but it isn't going to do anything. Worrying about something out of your control isn't gonna help, so I just play the game they make me. Comparing the TES games to one another isn't going to get anything done. They're different games made many years apart from one another. Things are going to change, be them good or bad is a matter of opinion.

Isn't new tech about making things simpler? I mean i wouldn't take things out of the game to make it simpler... But maybe by projecting a difficult part in a simpler way....

What we have to realise is that each Elderscrolls games is a stand alone game in itself.

Yes they use the same world and lore, but each game is 3-4 years after the previous in development time and so much changes other successful games released in that time must have an influence.

Thats one reason there is now a perk system 'cause of Fallouts success.

I personally love the new look, the reduced skills mean they can concentrate on those that are still in, I agree with a earlier poster in the way that they have combined or cut redundant skills that seemed to have no use except for leveling attributes.

and after all there are sneak kill animations and duel weilding, and thats with only knowing about 10% of the game from the press and gamplay video.

I'm not worried too much. But if you look at Dragon Age 2's forums right now...there is a pissed off fanbase (some people not all) because of the simplification of that IP. Hopefully Bethesda is taking notice and acts accordingly.

Simplification is a good thing:

Instead of this:
http://assail.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/old-computer-image.jpg
We have this now:
http://81.5.185.34/tabletpcplace/images/winhec_tabletpc2_01.jpg

I love it!

I'd think that they have other ideas they want to implement and so need to streamline the older ideas. That's what I'm hoping.

Thank almighty that Todd isn't one Peter Molyneux who'd like to manifest his divine creation powers by making movies, and selling them to people as games.
Easy. If there's one developer in business who knows value of good, massive and complex RPG, it's Bethesda. We're in good hands guys and gals. :thumbsup:

Not at all, to me it looks like they're refining,fixing and improving the game not simplifying it.
Also morrowind had a crafting system? I missed that even, as I'm replaying it now, unless you refer to enchanting which is back in skyrim.
Pauldrons were added to the cuirass probably to reduce enchantment stacking and clipping issues and just to make it look better, same applies with taking out clothes under armor and robes over armor, which is making the game better imo unless you want alot of [censored] looking clipping just so you can wear clothes under armor.
The clothing however was simplified into one set and reduced customization but I guess maybe they figured most people would opt for armor instead of clothing so customizing that wasn't really a priority? and I'm sort of on the fence about spellmaking now, it does reduce customization of spells for the roleplayers but we don't really have enough information yet to determine if that's a bad thing.

Ok, let's see:

Skyrim allows you to craft armor and weapons, neither Morrowind nor Oblivion has that. No, enchanting is NOT crafting.
Skyrim allows you to cast spells while striking with a sword, cast two different spells simultaneously or two-hand cast a spell for a more powerful effect. Morrowind allowed neither.
Skyrim has perks and special combat moves, Morrowind did not.
Skyrim has finishing moves, Morrowind and Oblivion did not.
Skyrim movement and model animations are much more realistic than Oblivion, let alone the crap that Morrowind had.
Skyrim bows are actually useful, Morrowind and Oblivion ranged weapons were almost useless at higher levels.
Skyrim stealth has "alert" state and is more tactical. Morrowind stealth was [censored].
Skyrim has DRAGONS, Morrwind had Cliff Racers that WERE INCREDIBLY ANNOYING!!!
Skyrim has a much better scaling system than both Oblivion and Morrowind.
Skyrim towns are their own ecosystems, which is totally new and improved from Oblivion and earlier.
Skyrim and Oblivion are fully voiced, Morrowind is not.
Skyrim has dynamic weather and snowfall, which wasn't even possible to do at the time of Morrowind (or even Oblivion, afaik).
Skyrim has a better leveling system. Morrowind and Oblivion both followed the skill-based logic, but both were a bit awkward with Major/Minor skills.
Skyrim quests and general world interaction is a refined form of Radiant AI that breathes even more life into the game than Oblivion did. Morrowind didn't even have that kind of AI, it was all scripted events.

Will this suffice, or should I go on? Don't get me wrong, Morrowind was great at the time it came out, but saying that Skyrim is a simplification of Morrowind just because the devs take out a few things here and there and replace them with something different (and maybe far better)... well, it's such a blatant exaggeration that you could almost be mistaken for trolling.


Do you even realize how many spells that is, if implemented the right way with scaling and whatnot? 80 spells could potentially be a huge amount, because now Bethesda no longer have to create 5 different spells for the exact same effect (as opposed to Oblivion and Morrowind), because of how spells can be scaled and cast in various ways for a number of outcomes. Tbh, I think that's much better than, like, creating 100 copies of the exact same weapon in Sacred and advertice that you got "100 different weapons".

I think that they're just getting rid of lesser-used features in order to tighten up the combat mechanics. It's a shift towards combat, but then there's stuff like crafting. My main issue is things like woodcutting or doing jobs. It's very tedious to just play a minigame in order to get money. I also dislike the finisher moves in combat or insta-kill stuff, but that's just me feeling like it will feel tedious.

Overall, I think the complexity will be above that of Oblivion, but not at the level of Morrowind.

Yes I am worried.
I am hoping Oblivion will be the fluke in the awesome Daggerfall- Morrowind.. Skyrim? awesomeness.
I loved Daggerfall and Morrowind, but Oblivion, not so much.
From all other gamemakers it would have been an excellent game. As the game to follow Daggerfall and Morrowind..
not so much.

Spellmaking is rumoured to be out and that makes me go argh argh argh.

But all in all I have hope. The trailers Ive seen look amazing.
The radiant quest/ radiant AI thing sounds like a lot a replayability potential.
The story as culmination of a thread we didnt even know was there, but was actually present all along is fantastic.

Im am hoping for the best but fearing the worst, as the famous saying goes.

this is what happens when you don't really read what was written,
I know they are making everything else super crazy awesome the ONLY thing I was talking about
was the crafting system and more specifically the spell-crafting, not the entire game...
go have a rant seizure elsewhere lol

No need to get all hopped up on Mt. Dew o.O

I enjoy the broad opinions of everyone just not when they are trying to shut someone down, thank you all for your opinions without trying to make me feel stupid

i would prefer the old armour system but when it comes to the spells i would trade out the ability to make them with actually having them be unique anyday, all the attack spells looked the same, the only exception was lightning but that was only 1 spell, no lightning storm or chain lightning or anything so i'm glad to see change.

Do the Dew.

I would love for it to be more complex, like Daggerfall and Morrowind. However, I don't think it will. Too many media butt kissers gave Oblivion way to high of ratings and because of that I don't think Todd nor anyone else on the Dev Team realize what they did to Oblivion and how the RPG aspect was removed from it for the most part. There is talk of removing spell making, if that isn't simplifying the game even more than what is?

Only playing the game will tell, but I'm not holding my breath for any more complex RPG's coming from Bethesda and that is a damn shame.

I agree, I am a little concerned about the things they are simplifying.
What really got my attention is the way they are changing the leveling system this time. It sounds like Bethesda is making it so that every time you increase one of your skills you gain a point towards your level up. In Oblivion, if you increased your heavy armor skill 10 times before leveling, then you would get a +5 strength bonus. But while you were increasing your heavy armor skill, you could also work on other skills to get other character attribute bonuses, and some of those skills wouldn't contribute toward increasing your level.
If they don't find some way to account for this, then your character in Skyrim will be significantly weaker than any character you might have made in Oblivion or Morrowind.

Imo, Skyrim seems very "deep" and "complex".
Except for a few things. The things that are simplied that I definitely don't like is:

- Fast travel OB style. It's terrible. Simplified to the max.
- Possible quest markers, if they are in. Hopefully, they aren't in and never will be again.

A few things I don't know about yet (too little info), but still hope aren't simplified:

- Armor/Equipment slots. I like pauldrons. One may not see it as a big deal, but they were one of my favourite type of armor-piece in Morrowind.

Sorry my bad, I thought we were talking about how you felt that Skyrim was being simplified. If you're only talking about the spellmaking system isolatedly, then yes. A spell system that lacks spellmaking, is necessarily simpler in the spellmaking department than a spell system that allows spellmaking. But isn't that kind of self-evident?

Seriously, aren't we talking about whether the game series is being simplified with each new release? Because that's what people usually talk about when bringing this issue into the open. Anyways, I said my piece so take it or leave it. At least it's something, however redundant it may be. Oh and you might wanna try to be a little less defensive, people aren't going on a rant just because they disagree with your line of thought or they wanna add something to the debate, again whatever its relevance might be.

( Although, it's kind of funny how commenting on someone elses defensiveness is, in itself, a defensive act. So touché in advance hihi. )

Cheers.

I honestly didn't see this as a rant. Rather as an interesting cataloging of some of the positive changes that have been made.

I am greatly looking forward to playing Skyrim.

I think a lot of people get change confused with simplification. This game sounds extremely intricate to me, far more complex than any other game Bethesda has ever made, so tell me - what about Skyrim is so simple?

Word. (great post)

But I can see why people think the gameplay will be more arcadelike.