Skyrim is Soulless

Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:14 am

post from another thread...........

i usually like to play snarky characters but when caezer told me what he would do if i kept the attitude up i immediately realized i was barely adequate gear and was surrounded by his houseguard. i got nicer after that. there are NO instances in skyrim like that. when you tell the first jarl in whiterun about the attack you get an option to reveal that your an escaped convict. how the hell does he know you werent being executed for slaughtering a family. on top of that you are given a reward and lots of praise for your bravery (running from a dragon attack and seeking help apparently passes for bravery in skyrim) you just get some general response about being forthright about being a prisoner. compare that to how the brotherhood of steel treats you if you enter their bunker before meeting "punching chick". they put a tracking collar on you for crying out loud and the BoS are only a minor faction in the game.
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hannah sillery
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:10 am

No it doesn't mean a thing. If the author prefers a Diablo style hack-n-slash, then it's neither his nor the developer's "fault" (perhaps more the author's fault for trying to make Skyrim be Diablo). If he prefers a cinematic game that he will play once and uninstall that is more like a movie than a game, the same can be said.


Except when someone (say a critic or opinion writer) is being payed too look at a game objectively. You can not like a game personally and find it's merits (and vice versa). I would ask you if the point of Skyrim is not to have an immerssive/responsive world, what is the point of Skyrim? If the point was to play "cave-killer deluxe" Skyrim is a great game. But if Skyrim is supposed to be an RPG that means a little more TLC needs to be put into the NPCs and level editing.
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Miguel
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:13 am

post from another thread...........

i usually like to play snarky characters but when caezer told me what he would do if i kept the attitude up i immediately realized i was barely adequate gear and was surrounded by his houseguard. i got nicer after that. there are NO instances in skyrim like that. when you tell the first jarl in whiterun about the attack you get an option to reveal that your an escaped convict. how the hell does he know you werent being executed for slaughtering a family. you just get some general response about being forthright about being a prisoner. compare that to how the brotherhood of steel treats you if you enter their bunker before meeting "punching chick". they put a tracking collar on you for crying out loud and the BoS are only a minor faction in the game.


Some put much more importance on conversation in RPG's than others. Personally, selecting from someone else's dialogue options and thoughts are not my idea of RP. I'm just happy that Skyrim lets me Tab out of conversations where there isn't a choice that I like. My way of saying "I'm done talking to you" and move on.
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Bethany Short
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:18 am

Her name was Agnis. She wasn't attacking me, so wasn't an enemy. I clicked on her to try and begin a conversation. "I just cook and clean and do whatever they ask of me," she said. I thought, "Why isn't she reacting to the two dead bandits at her feet?" If she was being held prisoner, which I took as her meaning, then why wasn't she glad to see two of her captors dead? I clicked on her again.

"I can't even keep track of all the people who have been in and out of this fort," she told me. "They come, they go, I barely notice!" I sighed at the lost opportunity for some proper roleplaying. Why didn't the game developers recognize the emotional potential in this encounter? I could have told Agnis she was free, and she could have fled to the nearby city of Whiterun where I would have found her later and basked in the good deed I'd done.

There's something to be said for subtlety and imagination though. There ARE opportunities to have that whole "tangible gains" reaffirmation. Just go to Markarth and shoot would-be assassins in the knee, then visit the pub, talk to the people you saved. It changes things.

This one example is hardly the game. What about the random guy failing as a conjurer, who won't give up his borrowed staff of power? Or the necro witch trying to raise her dead relative? There's plenty of opportunity for role playing. Mods will add more, but I would hardly call it soulless.

Jumping on the hate bandwagon I say. Why not, it's easier than modding for free, that's for sure. Not as respectable though. Especially since this guy gets ad revenue.

I played that same fort and my thought was she must have been with some previous group of occupants. Some group had overrun the fort, taken pity on her being a feeble old lady, maybe even had a sense of "honor among thieves" and decided not to slaughter the helpless. She herself even mentions how many have come and gone.

Maybe this latest band of thugs were more "occupiers" than actual captors. Some wiry orc decided to have her cook and "service the men." Plenty of opportunity for a fervent imagination.

But that's just me.
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mollypop
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:59 am

Not to mention, ES games are not set up like that, which is why there is no player character canon, like there is in Fallout. When the pc gets a huge choice with actual ramifications (like the end of Daggerfall), you get a Dragon break.
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Hayley O'Gara
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:10 pm

People who play shooters are not beneath you. Stop being so derogatory to people you don't even know, it makes you look like an arrogant [censored].


Arrogant? I was only pointing out that it's better to stick to simpler more linear games if you don't have any imagination.
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Chris Duncan
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:16 am

See, my own take on Agnis is that she lives, has always lived, and always will live at, Fort Greymoor. Her comments said to me that it didn't really matter who else lived there - they were all transient occupiers. Only she was constant. As such, it didn't really matter to her whether the bandits lived, died or were replaced.

She's kind of like a ghost who hasn't died yet.

This. I liked Agnis. Very Elder Scrolls. She lives and works there. It's a dungeon to us and the bandits, but to her, it's a home. It made me think about how the NPCs must perceive the player's actions. You're just another regime change to them.
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Sista Sila
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:16 am

Well....I don't know what to tell you, but maybe you'd be better off playing a Bioware game or a JRPG. It's pretty obvious that The Elder Scrolls is not intended to be as plot-driven as those types of RPGs, favoring open-ended sandbox play.

I will agree that the one-liners from guards and some townsfolk could've used more attention (which leads me to wonder if they were rushed). And Speechcraft skill needs a good overhaul and expanded functionality; beyond simply merging it with mercantilism (that doesn't change the fact it's always been a weakly implemented skill, even since Daggerfall).


I realize that TES isn't plot driven, but when you completely [censored] ignore the plot for the sake of dungeoun crawling, we have a problem.

I also hate JRPGS for the most part, I find them melodramatic.

Also, speaking of Daggerfall, I actually find it a whole helluva lot easier to stay immersed in that game than in Skyrim. I'd still be playing it if it had Skyrim's combat and a graphics update. I don't even need the graphics, really, just give me a breath of fresh air with the combat and Daggerfall would be the only game (aside from the Fallouts and Morrowind) that I play.
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lexy
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:50 am

While I agree, Todd Howard himself has actually said that this is there goal. I remember in a video, he said that at its core the game was "Going through a cave killing things and getting loot". Sad indeed.

I remember that being the goal of a lot of the quests in Daggerfall, except loot was sometimes replaced as a monster you had to kill or a person you had to rescue. Going through the dungeon and killing things was the only thing that didn't change between most quests.

I've enjoyed the non-combat situations of Skyrim more than I have in any other TES game, and it doesn't pressure me into a dungeon anymore than Daggerfall, Morrowind, or Oblivion did.

I don't even need the graphics, really, just give me a breath of fresh air with the combat and Daggerfall would be the only game (aside from the Fallouts and Morrowind) that I play.

I'm glad I got into Daggerfall later. I still find the swinging the sword with the mouse fun.
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Hayley Bristow
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:16 am

Arrogant? I was only pointing out that it's better to stick to simpler more linear games if you don't have any imagination.


you should stick to not posting since you cant seem to talk without being a [censored].
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Tiffany Carter
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:24 pm

One word: Imagination

This reviewer should obviously just stick to cod and battlefield.

We should all obviously imagine the game has no flaws.

Let's all imagine you can kill "essential NPCs" or children.
Let's all imagine the Candlehearth owner didn't act as if Susanna wasn't killer.
Let's all imagine not all guards took arrows to their knees.
Let's all imagine quest givers don't give you dungeon locations and/or their name via telepathy.
Let's all imagine they didn't took out so many skills and weapon types, let's imagine my sword is a spear.
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Cheryl Rice
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:04 am

We should all obviously imagine the game has no flaws.

Let's all imagine you can kill children.


What the hell is wrong with you?
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Emerald Dreams
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:04 pm

I remember that being the goal of a lot of the quests in Daggerfall, except loot was sometimes replaced as a monster you had to kill or a person you had to rescue. Going through the dungeon and killing things was the only thing that didn't change between most quests.

I've enjoyed the non-combat situations of Skyrim more than I have in any other TES game, and it doesn't pressure me into a dungeon anymore than Daggerfall, Morrowind, or Oblivion did.


I'm glad I got into Daggerfall later. I still find the swinging the sword with the mouse fun.


Yeah, but in Daggerfall we had choices, which made up for the tedious dungeon crawling. Not that I hate crawling, I just don't feel like it should be, essentially, the only thing that really has any effort put into it. There needs to be some leeway in there.
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gandalf
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:35 am

Some put much more importance on conversation in RPG's than others. Personally, selecting from someone else's dialogue options and thoughts are not my idea of RP. I'm just happy that Skyrim lets me Tab out of conversations where there isn't a choice that I like. My way of saying "I'm done talking to you" and move on.


its not just the dialogue........its their attitude. i edited after you posted but the part that i added was that you are are given a reward and he praises you for your bravery. your bravery consists of running from a dragon and seeking help in a castle. :confused: apparently nords have a different definition of bravery than i do. i could even live with that except that its not an isolated incident. no one in the cities cares how many of their neighbors you kill so long as you pay your fine. you cant get away with that in Fallout where everyone is going to hate your guts forever. the best you can hope for is to get it up to some level where they are still suspicious of you if you do quests for them and thats only if you havent gotten to villified. once your villified its game over for getting on good terms with that faction. there NO interaction between different groups of npcs and the character and each other besides scripted battles.
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Emerald Dreams
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:34 am

What the hell is wrong with you?


I would start a nice little argument here but this kid thing isn't allowed on this forum.
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Sheila Esmailka
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:38 am

Yeah, it's not like there are no Radiant Story elements by killing/stealing from somebody...

And reputation apart from when it's too low or too high doesn't mean much. Oh no, you don't get gifts if you're not fully good or you won't get attacked on sight when you're not fully bad with the faction.

Your actions are hardly mentioned and NPC reactions to random things are hardly any different. They say something funny when you throw stuff around or when they find a body in both games.

And choices are always there even when it doesn't poke your eye right out. Somebody questioned why cannot you just kill the guard because he knows your secret. Guess what, YOU CAN!
Oh no, you cannot decline the quest you just started? Guess what, DON'T DO THE THING THAT IS WRITTEN DOWN FOR THE QUEST.
Want to rob a place but there's a wake person in the way, I guess you have no choice there, except either drinking an invisibility potion, using an arrow or a shout to make them go somewhere else, find another way... no, these are not choices.

And you must be obviously forced to join one of their factions of the war... no, wait, no you're not, you can even make a peace treaty in the main quest.

There must be a lot of roleplaying elements for that blind guy and that crazy lady, why can't they become your companion, it only makes sense, right?


Agreed.

What's funny is that these same people are the same ones who claim the series is "dumbed down" because map markers and quest arrows "hold your hand", yet they can't comprehend the element of "choice" unless it's explicitly spelled out for them in a "Choice A" or "Choice B" dialogue tree.
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Roddy
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:03 pm

Seems his entire rant can be boiled down to " not enough NPC dialogue"
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Irmacuba
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:58 pm

An entire article built around an oversight.
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Chris BEvan
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:42 am

Seems his entire rant can be boiled down to " not enough NPC dialogue"


He wants 10x more dialogue and scripted conversation.

I guess he wanted Skyrim's release to be delayed to 2020?
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SWagg KId
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:51 am

I finally realized the problem I was having with Skyrim: It felt soulless. I may as well have killed Agnis and taken her stuff, because what did it matter whether she was there or not? I suspected that nothing I did would ever matter, and that has been my experience as I've progressed through the game. Skyrim is a huge world drawn with a level of detail that entices us to lose ourselves there, and is filled with things to do, enough to keep us occupied probably for years. But it also feels empty and pointless.

Everyone is so impressed with Skyrim, but I can't help thinking about another open-world role-playing game published by Bethesda last year, Fallout: New Vegas. By the time I had logged as many hours into New Vegas as I have in Skyrim, I felt like I had big decisions to make that were really going to change the world of New Vegas.

Perhaps I haven't arrived at that point yet in Skyrim, but I'm finding it difficult to continue caring about a world that feels completely indifferent to me and what I'm doing.


Forgive me because I didn't like FO:NV but I don't remember many NPCs commenting on my doing of crap. I remember the world being dead and empty feeling and I remember thinking that nothing mattered unless I was wearing the wrong armor. Then again, Skyrim was never meant for you to pick a side, it was meant for you to save the world.

Oh and plenty of guards in Skyrim comment on my saving the world and wearing dragon bones for armor.
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Mr. Ray
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:17 am

He wants 10x more dialogue and scripted conversation.

I guess he wanted Skyrim's release to be delayed to 2020?

Lol, you know. Not starting a war, but the consoles are being pushed to the limit as is with Skyrim, people that think we could have what the author is writing about, in this gen, are delusional. Want Fallout choices for every quest? Prepare to lose half of the quests.
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Saul C
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:31 pm

No, he was using that as one example of what is endemic in the game.

And all this, use you're imagination crap that people keep saying? That's for me and my character. I use my imagination to envision a backstory, and my characters motivations and why they'd choose to do what they. It's the job of the game designers to use their imagination to craft an immersive believable world where NPCs have backstories and motivations that can be explored. The world is supposed to present you with characters that you can RP with. You can't make any meaningful RPing choices when nothing you do matters and everyone is a bland cypher. If you have to make up crap to try to explain why an NPC is doing something ludicrous then the designers failed in that aspect of the game.


And in real life, you don't learn the stories of everyone you encounter.

If you need everything spoon fed to you, and can't find meaning in your actions without the game screaming at you "YOUR ACTIONS MATTER!" in big bold letters across the screen, then I don't know what to tell you.

I find plenty of meaning to my actions, and plenty of NPC response to my character, from my choices all the way down to the gear I have equipped.
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JAY
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:19 am

TES VI needs to come with a Dungeon Master
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carrie roche
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:33 pm

Agreed.

What's funny is that these same people are the same ones who claim the series is "dumbed down" because map markers and quest arrows "hold your hand", yet they can't comprehend the element of "choice" unless it's explicitly spelled out for them in a "Choice A" or "Choice B" dialogue tree.

:facepalm: Some just don't want to understand one's concern and instantly discredit them by putting words in their mouths or implying ridiculous things. It's like the fast-travel discussion for Oblivion. Everyone yelled "but you can ignore it!" while we kept saying "but the game is built around it, there's no real travel system, you're forced to walk the same roads all over again" with them ignoring this. Or those who said "ignore the markers" for Skyrim, well that would be easier if we were told where to actually go and how. And a lot of people seem to mistake choice for something that is not choice. The thing about us only seeing choices through dialogue trees couldn't farther from the truth. It's like people saying we like Morrowind only because of nostalgia.
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Brooks Hardison
 
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Post » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:17 pm

Lol, you know. Not starting a war, but the consoles are being pushed to the limit as is with Skyrim, people that think we could have what the author is writing about, in this gen, are delusional. Want Fallout choices for every quest? Prepare to lose half of the quests.


I agree w/ you 100%

Personally, I preferred New Vegas. Obsidian has always been incredibly talented at creative and flexible quest design and interconnected worlds.

But when I bought Skyrim, I knew what I was buying. Beth generally gives you less options, less flexibility, but rewards you with a huge, dense world to explore.
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john palmer
 
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