Skyrim, Steam and You : V

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:17 pm

As many are now aware Bethesda has partnered with Steam in its’ most recent releases, Rouge Warrior, Brink and Fallout: New Vegas. These games were sold with Steamworks integrated, this means that regardless of where you make the purchase (D2D, Impulse, Amazon, Best Buy, ect..) you must install and use Steam to play the game. Despite some misconceptions you do not need to maintain an active internet connection to play the game, you can have your computer offline while playing but you will not have access to many of the web dependant features in off line mode (Web Browser, Chat, Savegame Cloud, ect.) There are many players who are happy about this development, and there are many who are not. Either way many of them are waiting for the official announcement on what form of DRM Skyrim will use.

I would like to have an open and honest discussion about the potential benefits and pitfalls of Steam and how they affect the target marketing group for Skyrim, and if you are reading this then that means you. Please keep in mind that this is the discussion board for the game developer in question. While the discussion of software piracy is most likely inevitable, don’t post any How To or Why I Did kinds of posts. Also lets try to keep this discussion civil, if you cannot make your point without name calling or flaming then please don’t post. When a moderator closes this thread I’d like it to be because there are 200 poignant posts.

Until the official announcement we do not know what role, if any, Steam will play in Skyrim. I do know that Steamworks integration is not an irreversible process (from a pure programming perspective) and does not have to happen until the end of development. This means that unless there is an ironclad contract already signed by Bethesda, whatever decision has been made can be influenced, reinforced or even changed.

I tried to make the poll questions as unbiased as possible, let me know if there is something you feel should be added or changed. There was one further question that I wanted add but there doesn’t seem to be a practical way of doing it so I will simply post it here and let people copy and paste their answers should the feel like answering.

What do you feel are the Pros and Cons of Steam?

Achievements
Automatic Updates
Cloud Savegames (assume they work)
Mac Support
Monopolistic Business Model
Multiple Computer Use
Multiple Downloads
No need for a disk
Offline Mode
Online Activation
Personal Gameplay Statistics
Sales and Bundled Deals
Steam Client
Steam Community
Steam Overlay
Steamworks (forced registration)
Terms of Service
Title Exclusivity
Rate these as Pro, Con or Irrelevant, feel free to add any I may have missed.

» Sat May 28, 2011 12:09 pm

I really like steam, and I almost always use it. But honestly, if anyone is not going to buy this game because it's on steam, they really need to sort out their priorities

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:17 am

I like steam for Valve games. I do not like steam for most non-valve games.(I give an exception to Killing Floor)

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:27 am

I really like steam, and I almost always use it. But honestly, if anyone is not going to buy this game because it's on steam, they really need to sort out their priorities

The problem with steam for some people is that they don't have internet so they can't even install some games because it requires you to at least connect to the steam servers once. I use steam but I think it is a bit ridiculous to force people to have to connect to the internet at least once to use a game and some steam games won't even save except on Cloud. Also some games you buy that are steam integrated don't even have the game on the disc, like AVP, it just had the setup file to download the game off of steam, which I thought to myself "Why the hell did I just buy the disc when the game isn't even on it?"

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:13 pm

<3 Steam

My only issue with it is that it can sometimes cause issues/confusion with mods, and Beth games do tend to get heavily modded - and in some cases almost need mods(*shakefist @ Beth's lately terrible PC interfaces).

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:16 am

The problem with steam for some people is that they don't have internet so they can't even install some games because it requires you to at least connect to the steam servers once. I use steam but I think it is a bit ridiculous to force people to have to connect to the internet at least once to use a game and some steam games won't even save except on Cloud. Also some games you buy that are steam integrated don't even have the game on the disc, like AVP, it just had the setup file to download the game off of steam, which I thought to myself "Why the hell did I just buy the disc when the game isn't even on it?"

That last example IS pretty silly actually. But really, the need for internet is pretty much a must to prevent piracy (or atleast try), besides the number of people without internet is quite small and dwindling by the day. That said, I completey get it, and I used to be against steam back in the early days, but now I'm simply used to it, and I like the service it provides

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:55 pm

I used to hate achievements, but they can be pretty fun in some games. so YES for steam.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:03 am

I love it, but I see no reason to require it. I will say though if they are going to have a DRM and they put it on steam I want the only DRM on the steam version to be steams. No extra DRM added for fun and profit. And overall as DRMs go it is my favorite. Yeah, they don't need DRM, just like I don't need to lock my front door because they both only stop honest people.

» Sat May 28, 2011 6:36 am

I like Steam, but I'll buy the game physically. And the Collector's Edition if avaliable.

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:11 am

Achievements - Irrelevant to me. In a single player game even more so, since "achivements" belong INTO the game. In multiplayer games, it makes people care more about winning than teamwork, so in those it's actually a negative thing.
Automatic Updates - NO! Away with that BS!
Cloud Savegames (assume they work) - Don't need that. I have a computer where I can save games and a whole internets if I wanna save them elsewhere.
Mac Support - Don't have a mac
Monopolistic Business Model - I'll not comment on this.
Multiple Computer Use - I can do that with every other game as well
Multiple Downloads - I don't download games if I can get a hard copy, anyway... And I can download any game as often as I want otherwise.
No need for a disk - What do I have a disk drive for if I wouldn't use one? But I see the positive aspect in this; steam is not the only thing that can do that, though.
Offline Mode - This is an offline game. Of course there'd be an offline mode, everything else would be silly.
Online Activation - Silly.
Personal Gameplay Statistics - Singleplayer game. Statistics are in-game. In MP games statistics generally hurt gameplay.
Sales and Bundled Deals - I don't buy that many games, I'll gladly pay the full price. Besides, stores also do deals and such.
Steam Client - A client that I don't need.
Steam Community - I'm not in that community and have no interest in becoming part of it
Steam Overlay - I have xfire for that
Steamworks (forced registration) - Why would I register for Steam if I want to play a game?
Terms of Service - I didn't read the Steam Terms of Service.
Title Exclusivity - A very negative thing, obviously.

Generally, steam is a pest. Most of its features are irrelevant to me, but it forces itself onto other peoples computers. I'd only ever use it as a messenger, but I already have enough of those that work just as good, I do not want to download Steam.

I would buy TES V anyway, but I'd be pissed.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:03 pm

I used to hate the idea of digital distribution, until Christmas 2008, I bought Fallout 3 on steam, then they had a holiday sale, I bought a ton of games, since then, I buy all my PC games on steam. If it is not on steam, I usually dont get it.

I have 105 games on steam now, from all their amazing sales.

In fact, I made it a point to RE-BUY many titles(when they went on sale for$ 5-10) so I would have them on steam instead of disc. Even though I already owned them. (S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Morrowind, Oblivion, GTAIV, Crysis and Crysis Warhead, World in Conflict, Bioshock, Battlefield Bad Company 2, Deus Ex 1-2, ect ect ect.)

If you have a rig powerful enough to run Morrowind on high settings, then steam will not hinder your PC performance at ALL. Let alone a PC powerful enough for Skyrim.

Not only that, but even if you have 56k still, all you need to do is activate it once, and you can play in offline mode indefinitely if you choose. (There is no time limit as some users here suggest.)

Combined with the convenience of being able to download the game to any PC you want, no hassle of discs if you prefer not to use them, auto updating for patches (which can be disabled with 2 clicks if you are picky).

Not to mention friends list, achievements, Game Specific News, Game-play Time Tracker, Game play Guides, and Web Browser for in game forum browsing. All available just by pressing shift tab.

There really are no negatives to using steam, anyone who thinks there are is not properly informed on the matter. If you just have a problem with having to install a second program, well then that's just a principle issue, because it literally has ZERO negative effect on any system powerful enough to run the games in question.

» Sat May 28, 2011 1:52 pm

I really don't care. Steam has been good to New Vegas so far, save for the achievements but that doesn't matter.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:27 am

I used to hate achievements, but they can be pretty fun in some games. so YES for steam.

That is the biggest thing I love about Steam is the achievements that I can show off to my friends :celebration: Sadly, I also show off the achievements I get on Xbox Live from the exact same game I have achievements for on the PC lmao

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:58 am

talking about steam, those who have steam should join this group. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/TESV

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:33 pm

Let's make sure we're not dismissing people who don't have internet connections on their gaming PCs. Some people have perfectly fine computers but don't have internet access (or sufficient internet access) to use something like Steam. Others don't like Steam itself, I myself avoided it until shortly before FONV was released although I must say I'm quite impressed - but I know people who adopted it earlier and didn't have such a smooth experience.

I've removed some posts, if anyone else decides to troll the thread they'll be warned. The last thread about Steam was locked because it was having substantial problems and it's a bit disheartening to see problems cropping up already in this thread as well. Most of the discussion has been great but this section is far too busy for us to be babysitting Steam threads. It's a legitimate topic so it's not something we can restrict which means we'll be taking a harsher approach with those individuals who are out of line.

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:10 am

I don't mind Steam all that much, but I just don't want it in my TES games.
So I voted for "Steamworks version sold through Steam, Non Steamworks version sold everywhere else (43 votes [79.63%])"

» Sat May 28, 2011 7:49 am

If you have a rig powerful enough to run Morrowind on high settings, then steam will not hinder your PC performance at ALL. Let alone a PC powerful enough for Skyrim.

Not only that, but even if you have 56k still, all you need to do is activate it once, and you can play in offline mode indefinitely if you choose. (There is no time limit as some users here suggest.)

As someone who had dial up and several steam games, I would like to point out that this isn't entirely correct.

Once you install it, and activate it, before you can play offline it also needs to update. Steam will not allow you to run any game directly after install if there are updates, even if you disable auto update.

Steam Community causes odd performance issues now and then too.

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:05 am

I don't like Steamworks on my retail games. I only have two games that need it: Portal and Darksiders. I had thought I wouldn't need Steam for the retail version of Portal, but I was wrong. By the time I knew Darksiders needed Steamworks, it was too late (besides, I had imported it).

I'm glad games are coming out on multiple platforms. For games that have irksome PC DRM, I've decided I'll get them on the PS3 for when I eventually get a PS3.

EDIT:

Achievements - IRRELEVANT, I don't care about them
Automatic Updates - CON, maybe the update actually breaks the game
Cloud Savegames (assume they work) - IRRELEVANT/CON, Steam seemed to screw up FO:NV savegames
Mac Support - IRRELEVANT, I don't own a Mac
Monopolistic Business Model - CON, duh
Multiple Computer Use - IRRELEVANT, I only have one desktop, I'm the only one playing the game
Multiple Downloads - IRRELEVANT, if I had a disc, I can reinstall as much as I want, without relying on Steam servers
No need for a disk - IRRELEVANT, I don't mind discs
Offline Mode - IRRELEVANT, doesn't even work anyway
Online Activation - CON, I don't want to wait
Personal Gameplay Statistics - IRRELEVANT, I don't care about these
Sales and Bundled Deals - IRRELEVANT, I bargain hunt anyway
Steam Client - CON, another piece of bloatware on my PC
Steam Community - IRRELEVANT, I don't interact with the Steam community
Steam Overlay - What is this?
Steamworks (forced registration) - CON, I hate being forced to sign up for things I don't like
Terms of Service - CON, Steam has really crappy ToS
Title Exclusivity - CON, I won't buy it if it uses Steamworks

» Sat May 28, 2011 4:56 pm

If Steam is required, I will bite the bullet and non buy Skyrim on PC. I will still buy it for the Xbox 360, assuming it's released on it. If it's not, I guess I'm screwed, because I'm on a 26.4k Dial-up connection, which pretty much makes steam and my computers internet un-[censored]-compatible. I would be extremely pissed if gamesas forces Steam on Skyrim, because I love the ability to mod my TES games, and losing that capability because of a [censored] DRM might make me not want to buy their games in the future.

» Sat May 28, 2011 3:32 am

I don't really care, though they are probably using Steam anyways.

» Sat May 28, 2011 5:40 pm

I begrudingly installed Steam after being given a copy of Fallout New Vegas. I was surprised at first to find I didn't mind it that much. I bought a game through the store and pvssyd to a couple friends through it. All was well. Then one day my ISP had troubles and left me without an internet connection for two days. I couldn't play New Vegas since I couldn't get online to put Steam into Offline mode. Why the hell do they even have an Offline mode if you can't use it when you need it?

After that experience, I put Steam into Offline mode only to find it reconnected itself and put me back into Online mode the next day. I turned off Automatic Updates. Guess what? I got the broken patch I didn't want anyway. I hate that I have to be given permission to play my game which was purchased on a disc at a store but I've accepted that that is what I'm stuck with and I expect Beth will go the same route with Skyrim. It svcks imo, but that's the way it is. I'd gladly pay $20 more for a boxed version of the game that is Steam-free. Please Bethesda, let me give you more money!

» Sat May 28, 2011 8:17 am

If Steam is required, I will bite the bullet and non buy Skyrim on PC. I will still buy it for the Xbox 360, assuming it's released on it. If it's not, I guess I'm screwed, because I'm on a 26.4k Dial-up connection, which pretty much makes steam and my computers internet un-[censored]-compatible. I would be extremely pissed if gamesas forces Steam on Skyrim, because I love the ability to mod my TES games, and losing that capability because of a [censored] DRM might make me not want to buy their games in the future.

man i dont get it where do you live to have a wicked low connection like that?

» Sat May 28, 2011 10:22 am

man i dont get it where do you live to have a wicked low connection like that?

Literally on top of a mountain. Beyond that, the nearest town is 8 miles away(nearest neighbor is a mile n a half), and the towns population does not exceed 1500 people. The nearest mid size city is 30 minutes away, population 100k.

» Sat May 28, 2011 2:36 pm

What do you feel are the Pros and Cons of Steam?

Achievements
CON - This is distracting and easily breaks immersion.
Automatic Updates
CON - Version control can be game breaking especially for mods, no ability to store patches for specific versioning.
Cloud Savegames
CON - I can see some appeal to this, but the negatives of losing direct storage and access far outweigh the positive.
Mac Support
IRRELEVANT - The tiny minority of Mac gamers typically dual boot, I don't think there is a huge market here and a Mac version would probably take design resources that would be better allocated elsewhere.
Monopolistic Business Model
CON - Nothing needs to be said here.
Multiple Computer Use
IRRELEVANT - I can do this with discs, faster and better.
Multiple Downloads
IRRELEVANT - Same as above.
No need for a disk
IRRELEVANT - I don't see this as a feature, unless the downloaded copy could be easily archived for backup and reinstallation. I can make a digital copy of a disc, I can't make a physical copy of a digital download nearly as easily.
Offline Mode
IRRELEVANT - Discs are already offline, and for a single player game why would I ever want to be online?
Online Activation
CON - The last thing I want when I am excited to play a game is the bitter frustration and anger caused by overloaded activation servers, ISP problems, or travelling without any access at all.
Personal Gameplay Statistics
IRRELEVANT - Oblivion had a menu page like this which worked just fine without steam.
Sales and Bundled Deals
IRRELEVANT - Other stores do this as well, both brick and mortar and online.
Steam Client
CON - One more thing clogging up my taskbar and sending push notifications, launching when i boot windows, is something I do not need or want.
Steam Community
IRRELEVANT - I am trying not to judge the entire community from the sample represented here, which is the only reason this is not a CON.
Steam Overlay
IRRELEVANT - If i wanted one I would install something more dedicated, like XFire.
Steamworks (forced registration)
CON - No brainer.
Terms of Service
IRRELEVANT - This would be a CON, but every ToS I have read is pretty absurd and has been shown as unenforcable, physical copies included.
Title Exclusivity
CON - Anything that limits choice is bad.
Rate these as Pro, Con or Irrelevant, feel free to add any I may have missed.

» Sat May 28, 2011 9:25 am

Achievements
Automatic Updates

Con unless optional.

Cloud Savegames (assume they work)
Mac Support

Irrelevant.

Monopolistic Business Model

Con. Future pricing.

Multiple Computer Use
Multiple Downloads
No need for a disk
Offline Mode

Irrelevant.

Online Activation

Con. As I bought the game, none should be required.

Personal Gameplay Statistics

Irrelevant.

Sales and Bundled Deals

Pro.

Steam Client
Steam Community
Steam Overlay

Irrelevant.

Steamworks (forced registration)
Terms of Service
Title Exclusivity

Con.

My position is more one of "I don't want DRM" than "I don't want Steam," and I've no particular reason to like or dislike Steam other than that. It has no features I require, is ineffective as DRM, and would only affect games I had acquired in a legal manner, so I should never be required to install it.