18 skills + 18+ perks doesn't sound dumbed down to me.

Technically the perks already are established against this sort of thing, because the perks are bound by skill, more so than Fallout 3, where the perks were more general, and there are lines between the stars, so we can end up with a system where you have to unlock some perks in order to go on and unlock others.

Definitely more than 18 perks - one for each level at minimum (maybe more) and then if at all like F3 the perk pool you can choose from may be determined by attribute level and maybe even skill level.

Makes sense why class would be removed then. Not sure what max level is reported as being - I think 50 or so ... if that is the case then that could be a hella lot of perks. Not even counting racial bennies or birthsign ... plus so much we don't know.

Modding in perks was easy for Fallout 3 modding in skills not so much for Oblivion or F3 for that matter.

Threads like this are crying over things lost without regard to what is gained. Fear of the unkown. I suspect there will be chances for much deeper character development.

I'd rather have faction membership that gives bonuses than classes than mean nothing other than a few benefits here and there.

Yes the higher ones skill is the more it contributes to leveling, this rewards you for specializing and use a few skills often, instead of many, but scarcely. It doesn't necessarily mean you lvl faster, because you have to take into account that the amount of "xp" you had to get to level 4 is not the same as the amount of "xp" you need to get to lvl 5.

OHMYGODIT'DSAALLLCONSOLIZEDNOWWEAREDOOMEDEVERYBODYCRYANDWHINE

Seriously, who the f cares. Wait for the actual game. There is no point in useless skills that can just be added together.

As for the subject, no one's crying here, the point of this thread is to indicate a bad road Beth had been following since Oblivion. Of course this is only my opinion I like to share, but the thing I mean is perks and skills could be really nice if they pull it right. As skills governs much more general use of something, perks could be much more detailed in this manner, making the game more interesting. A general perks, like adding x points to skill isn't the approach I would like to see.

On the other hand, besides perks adding x points to skills, they could add some cool fancy archievments, these are popular nowadays , like "You entered the options screen!" or similar.

You shouldn't automatically relate less skills with consoles, some console players prefer more skills. Personally I'd like a lot more weapons skills to return. If I use a dagger I shouldn't improve with long blades, if I use an axe I shouldn't improve with maces ect ect.

It has nothing to do with it "going console". Morrowind was console, Oblivion was console, seriously... Just listen to Tod Howard for a couple of minutes and he'll give you his motivation behind every turn the series takes, whether you like these turns or not, but childish assumptions are getting repetitive.

Like you said, that's your opinion. An unfounded opinion but an opinion.

Achievements? -shudders- (eww). Console talk leaves bad taste in mouth.

What I see - and this is purely nonsense as it will be what it is anyway.

You have a skill in say 1 handed weapon. Level get a perk for a dagger, next level perk for sword. The skill is the base of it the perk the expression of it. So you could have a one hand skill of 50 and a couple of sword perks, but no mace and so making it more difficult to be the master of all roads like in Oblivion.

That would be the bare bones of it - I expect them to be more detailed and spread out with abilities that pure skill alone would not give. Like the perks give life to the skills - opening new abilities that the skills then count toward.

I found that with Fallout3 it was much tougher to take the master everything approach. That is where the philosophy of "go anywhere, do anything" really fell down - especially in Oblivion where you could master all skills to the highest and also be the head of all existing playable factions without any consequences.

Choices and consequences are an integral part of RPG and Oblivion appeared to have no consequences and few choices - all gas no brakes.

It would even be good to see things like perks limiting or blocking other perks.

Then feeding into the radiant AI thread ... what would be really impressive is seeing NPCs using these things. That is where I think the classes will remain (with the NPCs). Like in Oblivion they had classes but no birthsigns and did not use their racial powers (except berserk). Made the NPCs seem like fodder and lacked challenge without mods.

I just hope they separate blade into short and long blade. Why the hell would I as a thief be able to swing a claymore as good as a skilled warrior? And like so many people have complained about before,
this is getting quite old but for the love of God bring back spears! Other than that, i'm completely fine with melding speechcraft/mercantile and athletics/acrobatics.

I think it would really awesome if enemies/NPCs were build with perks in mind too, kind like if they had leveled up the same way you do, not with you like level scaling, but you know they have a specialization, and have been given perks similar to if the PC had that specialization. Imagine meeting a paladin with the "mace ignores armor" perk, "oh shi-".

I'm fine with 18 skills if those skills have more options to them. Merging weapon types with each other isn't the way to go though, it's about making each weapon type feel unique - not the other way around.

I voted "just right". While it is less skills, the problem is, I haven't been really using all the skills in Oblivion or Morrowind or Daggerfall. So I am guessing they have combined some of the skills, so while it may look like we have less, I believe it will just be the same, and nothing will be really missed.

Not enough info to decide. Acrobatics and atheltics were both nothing skills anyway.

A general basic melee weapon might be enought for low level. It is the basic of dodging, parrying, moving around, anolysing your ennemy tactic, coordinating your body moves to hit where you want to. Now, each weapon is specific and should be trained for to be used at its max potential, and that is where we can see the perks putting the specialisation between a dagger and a claymore user, making the character more skilled with one than the other.
But if the game was designed properly, there would be an obvious reason for your thief to take a dagger : encumbrance. Climbing with heavy weaponry should be hard. Collisions of weapons with the environment should also be in, so in a small corridor, the dagger user may hit, while the guy with the claymore will be seriously limited. Hitting the walls and items with your clumsy encumbered character should be noisy, and limit your stealth abilities...
Spears can be in, but it is not a matter of skill that keep them out, more a question of lazy developers to craft the appropriate animations.
To finish, your example of skills merging with the only 2 social skills is a bit opposed to your first idea of requiring 2 seperate skills to do the same thing : bashing people with cutting stuff. But I think it can also perfectly work with perk system : Lets have a general speechcraft skill with perks like : etiquette when talking to nobles; streetwise, with criminals and homelesses; Mercantile, to negociate stuff...

It is a classical RPG system structure : a set of general skills and specialisations. I would even say that it is a better one than a system with many completely parallel skills, even when some of them are obviously similar. Back to blades, how could you explain that a master swordman would not have been able to cut his meat with a knife? I prefere the idea of developping a basis, encompassing similar or intimately connected activities, with the ability to get some special focus on some of them.

Still too many, IMO. Just came back from a session playing Halo with my bros and they thoroughly agreed.

Perks can make up for the lost skills easily. But it will depend on how Bethesda will do it. I would hope for very diverse perks, not only stuff like +5% in damage with long blades.

Only five schools of magic?

No necromancy this time either?

Magic just became a bit less... magical.

I'm probably way off the mark but I assumed the perks would be similar to the mastery bonuses for Oblivion skills so disarm, paralyse, jump on water and sneak in any boots would be included with new perks for the magic schools and others ( no point having less tumblers fall if there is no lockpicking mini game ). Seems logical. If so I'd call that a good start towards diversity in perks. Do I want to take less encumbrance from my heavy armour or something more exotic has to be an improvement over just being given it for getting 75 in a skill. If I'm totally mistaken, feel free to correct.

Hopefully it will be as you say. It's my opinion that they will be like that too. And in such a case IMO, I agree we'd be talking about improvement.

Personally, if you ask me, I'd like to see two kinds of perks. One tied to skills, which work like the perks we had in oblivion (Not saying we get it automatically. We'd still have to choose them, but they'd be governed by their skills). The other could maybe be tied to the general level or attributes (if they still exist) or something, and could have perks that aren't necessarily related to skills.. like eg an "animal friendship" perk someone mentioned, or something.. I have no good imagination, so I cna't really give many examples . In any case, I'm pretty optimistic about the system right now.

Yes I read this and I was like "WTF! Didn't they learn from last time?" More is better in. I loved morrowind, oblivion a lot less on that matter.

I wonder if u r able to choose between axe and blade now or if it just is a "combat" skill...

Personally I think merging those above skills is a really good idea. The missing skills that people are worried about are very likely merged with another skill, this way they'll still exist.

It still lowers how specielized your character can be. THey might aswell make a stealth, magic and combat skill and get it over with. I don't mind mysticism removed, few people actually used it all that much. But Sneak and Security? really? That would be terrible imo. :S

Just wait until TES VII, when they have it "streamlined" to just "Skill". It has no effect on the game whatsoever; your character has it, and it appears in your menu......but I hear that the graphics in the game will be stunning.