Yes but at what point do you start cutting things out for not caring, there are tons of details in the game that by themselves seem insignificant but once added to the whole make a different experience. I am saying the sum is greater than its parts and if they can make running around in a robe look less hideous than the games before it I would appreciate it a lot. I like role playing in the game and that meant choosing a certain style for my character, but then my mage running around in what appeared to be mc hammer pants really deflated my bubble while playing.

I agree that I won't be angry at the devs for leaving it out, but I would also give them many thanks if they could add another small detail that makes the whole that much more pleasing to my eyes.

Oh yeah didn't mean to single you out Urge just picked a random post saying it didn't care about clothing simulation.

I think everyone is missing the a major plus of a cloth sim. The ability to "shrink-to-fit" where a shirt, cloak or whatever can be designed and implemented one time and deform to the body such as one item being able to conform to a female, male, tall, short, skinny or fat body type. One model that works for all body types to provide great diversity with a single asset. Also layering. An undershirt that fits closely to the body, an overshirt or chainmail, then armor and maybe a cape/cloak on top of it. If something like this was implemented in Oblivion, you would have to create a multitude of meshes to provide various combinations such as a cuirass without the cape attached, a cuirass with an undershirt or cuirass without an undershirt but with chainmail, etc.

It may well be pie-in-the-sky, but I think it would be much more preferable to have something like this to allowed diverse and layered clothing/armor.

LHammonds

I avoided dresses and robes for my characters in oblivion because they looked so hideous.

I pray they do at least a little to make skirted clothes look better.

There are quite a few bits of cloth physics in games today. good examples would be NBA 2k10/2k11, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iar5trql1OQ
Quite extensive use imo.

It is quite resource intensive. And in a TES game I expect it would need to be used sparingly. Perhaps based on maybe a dozen or so cloth bones at most. And will need an LOD function to disable the effect at a certain distance.

It's not exactly impossibly hard to set up a very basic cloth rig. But it isn't the easiest thing in the world. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4383/the_secrets_of_cloth_simulation_in_.php?print=1

I expect the use to grow exponentially in the near future, because it does look :disco:

Anyway it is very hard to tell from the screen shots we have. imo it's not in. But who knows :shrug:

"What does it add to gameplay?"

Consider the hedgehog appearance of early glass armor with silly looking spikes all over. Without cloth based systems you either have to make a cape model for each of the armors, or a complete upper body replacement for each combination. With cloth physics, you just define the hardpoints a cape connects to and let physics do the rest. Daggerfall allowed all kinds of combinations as it didn't have to worry about the 3D model or animation aspect. Cloth would allow the same thinking process in 3D, so thus it would be more feasible to have "capes on everything and make it look good". Rather than making it impossible due the number of models that would have to be made using a modeled approach.

So it affects gameplay in that it would be possible to have certain things in the game without adding a tremendous cost to models. It adds to gameplay in that capes would be there instead of left out. Clothing and armor combination systems haven't exactly *improved* with each game since Daggerfall...

No worries, you make a good argument and I don't mind being singled out or challenged in any way. You never need to worry about me getting offended by anything, within reason of course.

Game developers can do anything—but they can’t do everything. Would cloth simulation be cool? Sure. But Bethesda builds huge open worlds with really complex characters (who can wear any armor, use any weapon, have AI routines, stats, etc.). At some point, something’s got to give—especially in a multi-platform title that has to run on aging console hardware.

Guys, sorry for the late reply... i′ve already removed the image link...

My point at al is that Beth is working in an all new engine... so, why not have a cloth simulation?

Mafia 2 for example made a great job with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v58urTep8lM

Cloth simulation with robes, women skirts and even CAPES would be so much more reallistic!

And yeah... It′s nothing but eye candy, but come on! We are having a awesome improvement in animations. Cloth sim can not be missing!

My hope is that it′s not implemented YET... I just hope to see some joy in some gameplay video (E3 probaly?)

Why don't we wait for some video before jumping to any conclusions? :grad:

Yeah, it'd be a really cool feature, but it's hardly a deal-breaker if it's left out.

Even if there isn't full cloth simulation, I would imagine Jigglebones would be tough to simulate for a wide variety of NPCs and characters

If the graphics are going to be limited by what the consoles can handle, I'd rather see them spend the power that it would cost to do Cloth Simulation on something more interesting.

I'd like to see this feature, although it's a minor thing. The type of games TES have been so far is not only about the gameplay, this is not Diablo. Immersion is the cornerstone of TES and "eye candy", little by little, adds to the atmosphere of the game when done properly.

Havoc 7.1 is compatible on the console's firmware and it all runs on the GPU, so it doesn't require power that could be used for "something more interesting". It's only bell's and whistles.

Besides, even if they somehow have to sacrifice dynamic lighting and water/weather effects on the consoles for better physics, you still can get all those on the PC anyway so there's no point worrying about that either.

you seem to have the impression that the rig that would allow for cloth sim is somehow not very specific to the model itself, Besides the collision shapes, that act as colliders that will simulate the body under the cloth, the cloth itself has a rig set up so that it can be moved/physicized at all.
As I understand it, the cloth bones have to be closely matched to the mesh itself, or else it'll probably clip with the body, and as I have talked about clipping they would never do something like cloth phsyics if it's going to look wrong, clipping is like plague to developers. This means that in a TES game, with dozens of wildly different outfit shapes and styles, a similar amount of rigs will be needed. So while the colliders of the body would be the same, the clothings rig would be specific to each piece, or similar pieces. So a single rig for capes is feasible, as long as 1: all cape meshes are the same or very similar in shape. 2: that none of the outfits they can be worn with will have very differently shaped meshes. < the body will have collision physics for havok behaviour, but I doubt outfits won't contain the information so compatibility between items is probably a rare thing. So I am sceptical of it's implementation.

In theory, any combined rig that would account for a wide variety of outfits would be quite extensive. It's not like the basket ball game I linked to, where everyone is wearing the same outfit. which imo with all the different outfits, and the modular approach to equiping them, will or could get expensive resource wise.

I'd love it if cloth was in the game.

But that realy depends on wheather theyre using a version of havok that can do it.

Yes, because GPUs are a magical piece of hardware that don’t have limited resources! They can do anything! That’s why they’re never improved and we’ve had the same GPU technology since the consoles were released, because there’s no reason to upgrade them. :rolleyes:


They sell far more copies on the consoles than they do on PC. Like it or not, the consoles dictate the game’s capabilities because that’s (by far) the largest audience for their games. PC gets short shrift because they’re a (comparatively) small percentage of TES customers.

What does having more than 10 voice actors in your game add to gameplay? What does having good music in your game add to gameplay? What does making effective use of lighting add to gameplay? What does having a good story add to gameplay? And if you don't care as much as you act like you do, than I'm inclined to wonder why you bothered to click on a topic about the matter.

If you need to ask that question about everything, then go play Dungeons and Dragons, or some other pen and paper game, because I'm sure you'll have much more fun there not needing to worry about anything that doesn't "add to gameplay."

Now, back to things relevant, I'd say that screenshots probably aren't the best place to judge whether the game has cloth physics, even so, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't see it. It seems to be one of those things that to this day, a lot of developers have a hard time doing right, or they don't feel the need to bother attempting it at all. It's been proven that it's possible in some games, and you'd think with all the effort developers put into improving graphics and physics in games, you'd think more would try to do this, but obviously, things don't always go how you might think. In any case, I'd hardly be surprised if Bethesda did not do this, but we don't have anything that proves they won't, because physics are the kind of thing you need to see in motion to judge, but early screenshots may not give us reason to expect much in this regard.

This subject is of fair concern to me (assuming we somehow have an exporter and other tools for modding). I'm actually not as excited about havoked cloth as I am with simply getting a better rig. We got shortchanged in OB bigtime. I seriously doubt we'll see havoked cloth in Skyrim because I think BGS would already be crowing about it.

I am fine with no cloth simulation. In most games that I have seen with it, it usually glitches pretty bad and can go right through character models.

I don't quite understand the large number of people that would excuse it not being in, or question what it adds to the game. Since Morrowind, (hey, even Daggerfall) Bethesda games have always, in a major way, been about visual quality and atmospheric presentation. No one is asking for full hair and robe material simulation - most games are rather clever and selectively animate small parts of models to convey enough of the impression of fluidity - but to omit a feature that has been around since before Oblivion and goes a long way to "selling" the movement of characters, well, like a potential absence of spears, this would be a let down and a disappointment because we expect Bethesda to have high standards!

I keep seeing people mentioning this screenshot: http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Components-SiteFiles-imagefeed-featured-bethesda-elderscrolls-elderscrollsv/dragonshoutfeatured.jpg_2D00_610x0.jpg

When talking about clot physics. The position of the cloth in that screenshot could be due to how it's rigged to the legs, it doesn't mean we have cloth physics.

That being said while I'd like it if they used Havok Cloth I doubt they'll use it. But no big loss, IMO.

+ Juan

This, every game seems to forget most people have legs...

Morrie: his sole turning changes the direction of the wind. :disguise: