Thought I'd help get the ball rolling and really get people thinking on it. That other thread had a good topic even if it ended in a flop.

I actually don't mind slaves in the real world. Provided they're treated fairly or otherwise become as such if the other option is death, imprisonment (behind bars 24/7 with many people around. Not quite the same and certainty not well looked after) and the like.

I wouldn't mind being one. Actually, I am one. I don't mind being forced into situations and I don't mind extremes like being locked in a cage for a long time within reason, physical/mental abuse to the extreme provided it's not resulting in limb loss or permanent injuries. I wouldn't mind any of this if the owner cared enough to treat me well, even if they may take advantage. Which would keep me none rebellious. And I'm a bloody brat when I'm not treated well, I can tell you that. Which can be fun for the owner.

You know what I would mind though? Being stuck with some random Joe that rubs me the wrong way. And not being allowed prior consent, baring "being captured". I should get to say "You can go nuts with only a few hard rules". Still, if I get caught on a battlefield and there's a "Legion" that has owners that treat their slaves nicely to keep them placid am I going to say "Put my head on the chopping block instead"? Being a slave is actually a real thing and quite common on a 1 on 1 bases and even in small groups at times, which is when a slave is at their most placid more often then not. Now if someone goes "You're going to get treated like dirt and you're going to get spat on" then sign me up for chopping block. Still, you won't have any fun with me that way. And won't get the company. At least someone somewhere would have a chance of enjoying it if I was sold to a random Joe after being caught in battle where I could then also "do time" and enjoy their company too. Or maybe not. It's 50/50. But hey, still a step up over axe on the neck.

Now as for the Institute I see them as a middle ground between "Treated well" and "spat on". their main problem is not treating each synth on a 1 on 1 bases and just putting them into large groups and go "Reprogram every emotional synth. No exceptions". Maybe synths have their own hard rules. Maybe some like it and others don't? Either way you can see why treating a human on a 1 on 1 bases would be more efficient I'm sure. Should a slave be kept in line? Of course. But hey, I'm a brat and like a good struggle. And I don't just roll over on a reprogramming right away. Can't help it, caught or not. Maybe why it's people break the law. One has to wonder is synths enjoy being brats. But we can't know that if they get reprogrammed at the first sign of it. And "Treating like all the others within the group" tends to lead to rebellions. Wonder if Railroad would exist if the Institute showed more care for the synths? I wonder on the whites in ye olden times too. Can't control "race treatment" very well, but you can with "this group that looks after them better". Wouldn't want anyone to be a slave just because they are as they are though. That also tends to lead to rebellions. Treat them all nicely and see them each with their own personality? Tends to end better I find.

Either way it's a case of "Oh, you like me. I'm not going to run off now and be good and maybe even help you by choice." With me being a brat, treating me well would be a case of, hmm... I like the mind games to the extreme. With no/prior consent. That would be treating me well in a sense. But only if I like the owner. So it all circles to "Liking the owner". If I get to choose the owner then I'd say "Feel free to do all of this bad stuff to me" (After all my trust is placed in them of course). If it was a case of being captured by the enemy I'd just hope for the best. But kick a dog over and over and it's bound to bite you and run off.

I generally consider slavery to be the worst crime you can commit in the world and worthy of execution.

Murder can be done in the heat of the moment.

Slavery, by contrast, is always premeditated, reoccurring, and monstrous.

It is also very-very prone to sixual and physical abuse.

I feel the same way about torture.

BE THAT AS IT MAY, I also like when the games show the complexities of the situation as well. I wouldn't mind, for example, someone mentioning Caesar''s Legion making use of slave labor to rebuild the Colorado stadium or other large-scale construction sites which wouldn't normally be possible without forcing people into labor projects. Likewise, I liked the Railroad quest which mentions quite a few Synths are actually quite comfortable in the Institute and prefer the certainty of life there than the uncertainty of the Capital Wasteland.

I also enjoy the characterization of Ashur as a man who shows how an otherwise good man might get roped into it.

One flaw with your logic. There are slaves that enjoy being in forced situations. Not the norm of course but it does apply. And being a slave might be better then, say, being alone feeling worthless with no self pity. Though not all that enjoy forced have no self pity. And at least with bad owners it's not alone. Just hope it's with an owner that cares.

Regarding this one I can only say "bdsn" and "Plenty of kinky slaves and masters". Both seem happy.

Also, think of the term "pet" instead of slave as well. As in "Some like to be treated very nicely with snuggles as well". Not all though. There's a good mix really. And everyone has their own individual viewpoints of acceptance and the like.

'Course, trust is the main question as well. And having enemies be trusted is an issue to be sure when they capture and enslave you. I imagine a system would need to be implemented to punish bad owners that take too much of an advantage in a "Treat slaves fairly" faction (Exile?). Bet that would make for an interesting game. I actually intend to make one with this at some point (mature text adventure with choice). And I still need to learn coding. Might be awhile.

Well, the issue of slavery is, of course, if you're there voluntarily then you're not really a slave.

But we're getting into philosophical issues about the subject that I don't really want to get into the nitty gritty of.

Versus the artificial set-up in the game.

Slavery and being a submissive participant in a bdsn arrangement are two every very different things

The later is a choice the former is not

I think you should do a little more research on what genuine Slavery really is. It is a crime not a fetish.

You have issues sir or ma'am.

*Facepalms* I was attempting to distinguish the difference between sub and slave. And there are subs that are slaves. You can use what technicalities you like but in the end when someone grabs a leash only the two in that situation decide if they're slave/owner or not and how far that will go. It's as simple as "Volunteer" in terms of owners that are given the leash but not so simple when the logic is thrown into the realm of "Legion like faction here and what incentive do they have to treat me better". As for forced things, for me that would be a case of "I trust this other person enough to be in this situation", so kindly spare me the issues lecture. Those that capture you in a Legion like faction aren't going to care about that nearly as much however. Look at both viewpoints. How could "Legion like faction here" treat slaves better and still get something out of it?

Think of it this way. Instead of "Let's ban slavery" how could we go "What's the compromise?" Raiders/Legion aren't just going to free 'em all with nothing in it for them after all.

I know the difference thank you. I see myself as a slave. It's not just bdsn related. It's a life style "choice". I use the word choice loosely as it's not a choice to be yourself. You can choose who the owner is more often then not however. But again, how would it work in Fallout (when choice is taken away) and what's the compromise in terms of "Faction here that might punish there own members for being too harsh"?

If no one wants to discuss the topic then that's fine. But Fallout 4 is all about the grey. I thought this would be an interesting thing to ponder on as a result. And, you know, has anyone every actually thought about this kind of thing before?

I think you have some issues.

How so?

That's not how Slavery works at all.

"Treated Fairly" in the modern slave industry means your handlers actually monitor the drugs they pump into you enough that you're not likely to overdose. It all really depends on whether you are of any value and how lean the stock is at any given time. The minute you are purchased, of course, your life is at the utter whim of the purchaser. For all those that sold you care, the purchaser took you behind a corner and slit your throat for the giggles. No skin off their nose, and there are plenty more where you came from.

The Roman "ideal" of being a indentured body servant is a pure and utter fallacy. There's no such thing as a "well treated" Slave. Look at Joseph in the Old Testament - by every account he was an asset to his master and by staying loyal towards his master and not having an affair with his wife...she accused him of trying to violate her and Joseph is immediately thrown into Prison, and would have stayed there for the rest of his life had other events not transpired. As it was, he spent three years in a literal hole in the ground, forgotten by all.

Are there and have there historically been well meaning slave owners? Certainly. But they are arbarrations, not the norm. The norm is that you are disposable and in the modern slave industry, the only freemen who are released from bondage are the fortunate ones who are liberated in police raids.

By confusing Slavery with being a willing "slave" or submissive in a consenual bdsn relationship

When I say treated "fairly" I mean in the sense of "This faction could have a set of rules established to ensure slaves are likely to get treated better". Obviously wherever that is actually the case or not is another matter. How could slavery work if, for example, the ones holding the leash realized there's benefits to having a slave that actually wants to stay? Even if a slave is captured then surely it's more beneficial to look after the dog then mistreat it and have it bite in you in the ass at the first sign of rebellion. You catch a slave (forced capture) but then end up with a pet/willing slave that wants to stay. See where I'm coming from? Likewise there are going to be those that also "treat you like dirt".

And yes, it hasn't happened yet in realms of reality. But if it does at a later date then what's the harm in pondering this? I dunno about you lot but I don't want another "Capture these guys and force them to do manual labor because different". And different goes beyond physical appearance.

I don't think I should go into that too deeply, really. It's bad form and practically impossible to judge someones mental state accurately from info gotten via this medium alone.

Suffice it to say that you seem to have a poor grasp of what it entails to be as slave as well as some problems differentiating between a consensual fantasy and reality.

I don't think I want to participate in this thread any further.

And... just who decided that? I'm deep. It's who I am. It's in my nature to want to be deep with others.

Well if you don't have an interest then you don't have an interest. But I have a perfectly good grasp of how it applies in terms of the real world, roleplay, in game and otherwise as I've experienced all areas. Obviously real world is where you need to be the most careful. And things in roleplay and in game can be fun but not as fun in the real world. As well as vice versa.

Hahahahahaha........

Yes, I get the impression that you are talking about consensual slavery, like in bdsn, where someone chooses to temporarily relinquish their control to someone else, but they will always have the power to stop whenever they choose. bdsn slavery is roleplaying slavery, it is pretend slavery.

Actual RL slavery, would be forced servitute. Now, there are different ways to seeing slavery, and some people would see something as slavery while others do not. But a person is not property, and should never be treated as property. Regardless of how well a slave is treated, it is still wrong because they are property.

You can not really apply things from one to the other, they are the same in name only.

You also said that sometimes slavery would be preferential to death, that can be true. Similar to how dismemberment might be better than death, or torture might be better than death. But that doesn't make any of those things acceptable in RL.

Why?

I mean that question literally - what benefit is it to the Slave Owner to treat Slaves better, overall? Being a slave is to be a machine. What happens when my dish washer or microwave breaks? I throw it out and get a new one. You don't coddle appliances in your home, similarly you aren't going to coddle slaves either.

Coincidentally, that's the reason the Railroad exists. Because the Institute is a place where a Gen 3 Synth can be threatened with a total system reboot (ie Death of Personality) for simply looking at a terminal.

That's the best part about breeding slaves...eventually you have a generation with no concept of life beyond being in bondage. As for the rowdy ones...well, you have to put down rabid animals...

That's why the modern real world slavers utilize cheap, poorly produced narcotics and opiates to make the cargo compliant. Less fuss and bother to load and off load when everyone's blasted out of their minds. Also a control method - getting the slaves hooked on the poison they put into them is a great method of assuring long term compliance.

That's also how a lot of Fallout Slavers do business. Load up the cargo on Jet, and you don't even need Bomb Collars at that point - they'll stick around just because you're their supplier.

You're overlooking one very important detail. What if I give them the choice not too? Can it not be argued that it would indeed require a lot of trust? Furthermore, WHAT areas do I choose in that area and what areas don't I? Naturally I have a few hard rules but not on everything. And as long as those rules are followed and the owner in this situation treats me fairly then I see no reason to change that. And I know the difference in RP and RL thank you. Both have their pros and cons. Can't use fire breath in life now can I? Nor would it be health to do so.

At what point did I say it was? It's more a case of "What's the lesser of two evils in this situation". And what if others see things differently then you do? Legion like faction for example. Honestly, I thought that was clearly implied.

I'll get back on this one. But the short of it is "Why do the normal thing and "why not". And honestly, would you want to leave if you're getting laid and understood as a person? I'll get more in depth on that as soon as I can figure out how to explain it. But basically just because you're an owner that might force things from others in no way means you have to see things in that point of view. Even if it can be common. But could it also be not common?

Look at the real world though. We're already all slaves really. Work. Politics. Law. Any of this my choice? Did I agree to it or is it forced on me?

If they are able to make the choice, and choose not to, then they still have the choice. That is the distinction between RL slavery and RP slavery. I am not trying to argue with you or anything, the topic is Slaves in fallout and how it might apply to RL. Well, in fallout, it is not real, the land of fantasy etc.. RL is not, completely different rules. I was just trying to say that you can't really compare the two. If you are happy with the way your owner treats you, feel free to stay with them, but it will never be slavery until you lose the CHOICE to leave, then it becomes illegal.

I CHOOSE to be a slave in some areas. I CHOOSE to be held against my will sometimes. I get into that knowing full well what I'm getting myself into beforehand and it's something to consider very carefully. It's not ALWAYS choice with all things in every area. I CHOOSE to surrender that choice beforehand and choose to stick to that choice during-hand (itself a choice of not having choice). But I can also choose to leave after-hand if I decide too. But surrendering choice is still my choice.

I surrender my right to choose. Get locked in a cage. Things happen. I can say no and I won't be allowed to get out of a situation. But the owner can still care. Then afterwards it's a case of "Right. Got choice back. How did things go? Want to do it again in future?" I still have my wants and needs before and after. And I also need to be in that none choice situation even if I can choose to be in it or not.

I can also choose to give away choice with, say, X thing (mentally or physically. Often both) and also go "But hard rule of this applies. Never involve 3rd parties."

Any further questions before I get more into the "how could it work otherwise/in game" thing?

oh. Morrowind. I recall a certain slave that chose to stay after being offered freedom. In some mage tower. Kinda where I'm going with things. BEGAN as a slave but STILL a slave in the sense that he choose to be one. Does he see himself as one? That's his viewpoint. No idea. Never asked him. But a "slave" can mean different things to different people. I think you're all neglecting that. I have a leash. I have a owner. It's both against my will and not. And at the same time at that, which is really surprising. It's not always so black and white.

Except you aren't a person. You're a slave...you're an animated blow up doll to the owner. Understanding you as a person? Once they're through with you they leave the room and lock it from the outside. Heck, you're lucky if it's even a room...likely just a closet.

You're talking about a relationship, which is about as different to slavery as American Football is to Football in the rest of the world.

The difference there is, you can choose to opt out of any of that and fairly easily too. To a slave, disobedience means death.

Ok. I just plain and outright disagree with that. I have some experience with bdsn and any submissive should ALWAYS have a safeword, which can never be ignored. I would outright refuse to do a scene with a slave without giving them a safeword. But I guess now we are just down to personal preference. Nobody can dictate how you play behind closed doors.

I think I have missed the point of this topic though. You seem to be focusing entirely on bdsn slavery, is that your intention? Are you asking how bdsn could be introduced into the game world? Or are you asking how Slavery as depicted ingame would be in RL, because we already have slavery in RL unfortunately.

Again, what if it doesn't HAVE to be that way?

Being understood means I'm in a relationship with my dad and others I know that understand me yet are mono? Hey dad, we're getting married! You too mono people! It's been decided!

Yea... Don't assume. It can certainty apply to relationships but not JUST to that.

Then you aren't a slave.

The definition here is pretty ironclad. Also if it looks, talks, and walks like a slave it's going to be a slave, no matter how much you pretty it up.

Again, who decides that other then the one leashed and the one holding the leash? Not all owners see things in that way. You can look at someone as both property but also as a person. And another person might see just a person but take away their freedom. Again, it doesn't HAVE to be any way. And certainty not your way alone. Even if it applies.