well I'm glad they got rid of classes
like most D&D relics a pet hatred of mine
I don't see the change the same way you do though
if my character changes weapon preferences in the course of her career she learns to use a new weapon, she doesn't say I never meant to choose IH weapon in the first place

Agreed, as I mentioned before, I love how the new system is more about defining your character as you go along.

No, I''m fine with removing leveling restrictions. I'm not fine with Beth's insistence that removing leveling restrictions was to prevent people from having to re-roll a character. Because if picking the wrong skill with leveling restrictions was enough to have you re-roll a character after a few hours (which isn't much in a TES game, a few levels at most) then picking the wrong skill without leveling restrictions is just as likely to cause you to re-roll a character if you want anything resembling a cohesive play through (which I suspect most people do).

That's what I mean when I say there's no consistency in Beth's argument. Assuming there is, any skill differences would be eliminated, because any character difference is inevitably going to cause players to start a new game.

The new system works for both typs of characters, if you play with a character in mind then you use the skills you intend to. If you're casual and just want to pick up a sword one moment and switch to a bow the next there's nothing stopping you. At the first 25 levels of the game, it'll be more forgiving if you switch weapons than in Oblivion. I don't think it'll elliminate re-rolling completely, but I think it's much more forgiving if you choose to switch to another skill.

I don't think anyone was really confused as to it being inaccessible, I just think bethesda don't like the idea of someone wasting 3 hours because of trial/error, before starting playing.

I actually think bethesda has more of a problem with this, than the actual people who were inconvenienced by this.

Again, that's assuming there is no skill selection during character creation (a fair assumption, I think, given Beth's logic for other stat removal). That would be a bigger problem.

Wow! Awesome answer.

:intergalactic:

I assume this as I've heard references to character creation being your race and what you look like only. There may be some other selections (like choosing coming across your first guardian stone), but I think tagging skills or even perks in the new system would go against much of what they're working towards.

I sense they're going for a "play who you want to be" instead of a "choose who you want to be." Personally, I'd rather play and decide further into the game than to be forced to decide what I want 5 minutes in (even with planning). If they think this is the best way to fix the problem, then I'll trust that decision until I play it for myself, then decide from there.

Requirements like in FO:NV would be great, they basically set up optimal skill minimum for weapon, so you can still use it, but you will miss a lot

But I agree that it is possible to screw up even with this new "fool-proof" system
For example choosing speechcraft as one of primary skills (if there will be primary skills at all) could result in remaking you character
Because if Speechcraft is handled in TES5 like in TES4, I'll be really angry
(yes I'm one of those diplomatic players who prefer to deal with problems with the voice , where possible)

I don't know what's the fuss is about the start, the game nearly always felt the same at the beginning, your character is never fully developed at level one.

And how is sticking to the character you started with is the main thing in RPGs? It's not, it's character development, and in a good RPG your character will have many choices during the game itself not mainly at the beginning. Even D&D did this with their prestige classes.

Reading every guide and hintbook about how to create a character that actually have a chance at winning, shouldn't be the point of RPGs...

I think the real reason they did it is that Todd Howard is a psychic parasite who feeds off the suffering of reactionary forumites. Like Darkseid, except with whining instead of pain.

The problem is that in Oblivion, especially, choices that should have been good (choosing a class that embodied the playstyle you were going to use) actually turned out to be bad - and there was no way of knowing this until you had already created at least one broken character, or read up on all the "Warning! Warning! Broken Levelling System Alert!" comments online. Laying out the rules, giving adequate information for players to make good choices, then punishing them if they bone-headedly make bad ones - fair enough .


Right. Perish the thought that anyone should dare to try a new type of game, in the hopes they might like it. Or that someone new to gaming should have the presumption to get into it. RPGs aren't games, they are the special secret preserve of savants and beardies, and those nasty, nasty unwashed illiterates have no business trying to have (shudder) fun with them :nono:.


Don't worry, you don't have to try - you manage it so effortlessly .

Look, Oblivion was broken. No-one with any sense would say otherwise. With luck you could miss creating a broken character. With experience of its faults (or listening to other people's complaints) you could avoid creating a broken character. But you didn't have to be stupid or educationally subnormal to get stung by that fault. Other RPGs have less problem with their levelling systems because they are far more restrictive. Often, if you pick a particular class, there are many things that you are simply forbidden from even trying. And when they are linear in nature, they can use progression through the story to pace the increasing difficulty. TES isn't like that, and because it offers far more freedom in character build and in the gameworld it also offers far more scope to get things wrong.

Obviously, what Bethesda should do is, yes, let people create characters with distinctive base characteristics, whether by race, experience and native aptitude (class), birthsign, or a combination. That would let us create a character that is ours, and then see how well (or badly) our character can cope. That is the ideal of RPGs. But, given the fact that our initial builds will not be limited to a few well defined archetypes, and nor will our playstyles, if they are to do that then they need to have some way of telling you, in advance, what sort of character you will have to create in order to have a hope of progressing through the game. Or they're going to have to make damn sure that, with sufficient cleverness, any build will be able to progress.

Sadly, what they've chosen to do instead is to limit the variability of the initial character build, and then let us create our distinctive character as we progress through the game, adapting our playstyle to what works and what we find fun. It does take away the fun of figuring out how to play within the limits of our character, which I think is a damn shame. But it isn't in and of itself a bad kind of RPG. Just the kind that many of us (possibly those older, and more steeped in older traditions) don't like as much.

what kind of mental midgets are we catering too. who on Gods green earth could possibly been confused by oblivion or morrowind. you would have to have th IQ of a sock to be confused by either game. certain things im fine with such as combining long and shortblade or getting rid or medium armor.........i get that. i dont even have a problem with removing things that are obvious exploits that the npcs never take advantage of like levitation, spellmaking etc. but starting a character is confusing? really?

also, this solves absolutely nothing at all. you can just as easily spend 3 hours leveling up your character in skyrim only to decide that you want a mage character instead of the warrior that you have been building up. considering that the stones boost your skill rate increases by 30% and they have said that you level faster in skyrim than in previous games you in fact will be further along in your character build than in oblivion. it probably would actually be worse.

as for the system i personally actually like it. it combines the best of fallout and TES. the perks from fallout i liked but never liked the arbitrary skills system but i loved TES approach to use it to improve it system. im happy with it. i just hate the lame excuses and catering to morons who couldnt find their ass even if they were scratching it. if they sit there for long periods of time staring at the screen scratching their heads while drool collects on the side of their mouth.....so be it. keeping them confused is better than letting them wander around outside in public.

I feel the same.

I don't understand how someone can be stupid enough to get confused by Oblivion. If anything it wasn't complicated enough.

I admit when I got Oblivion I started over a few times but that was because I wasn't happy with how my character looked. It should be pretty obvious what the skills do. If you want to make a warrior you pick blade, blunt heavy armour etc you pick the warrior birthsign and focus on strength and endurance attributes...... I mean how hard is it really.

If it really is that confusing you should go see a doctor.

Rant Over

I'll be honest...... Oblivion was my 1st RPG (later went back and played Arena & MW) and I was just a bit confused at first, but I got to like the game pretty fast.

Im not really bothered by them removing classes, I liked selecting my class in OB but it was never that big to me. But considering I have not played Skyrim, I cant judge if the classes should be in, instead of the Guardian Stones.

Getting rid of classes was an excellent move and has nothing to do with 'dumbing' anything down in my opinion.

Sincerely, I think the removal of classes is a really good idea, and here is why (listen up those who keep complaining about the lack of depth or [censored]ing about the lack of immersion):

Instead of making you decide right there and then what you want to be and what play style you're aiming for by choosing a name from a list (that wouldn't even matter in endgame Oblivion; can't speak for Morrowind since I've never played it, but maybe I should), you define what kind of character you want to be through the choices you make as you play (which, in my opinion is much more "immersive"). These are my two cents.

Oblivion was a special case when it came to skill selection. Thanks to the auto-levelling, you had to use some reverse psychology. Otherwise, if you actually selected skills you planned to use, you ended up leveling too fast, and the game became too hard. When you have to not only micromanage, but micromanage in the most inefficient way possible, you are roleplaying - a government bureaucrat.

Most other games actually reward you for correctly picking the skills you intend to use the most at the beginning.

Thanks for the replies everyone! Just try to keep this topic clean too, no spam or flaming :tops:

With all this talk of dumbing down, I'm becoming increasingly concerned that this game is going to be the next Civilization V or Dragon Age 2. A game that, due to excessive simplification, causes the core fanbase to move elsewhere, fractures the community and ends up in the bargain bin within a few months. Bethesda really needs to ask themselves if that's the path they want to take.

One could, you know, read the manual, play the tutorial, check the fora, check youtube play for a bit and then restart or a myriad other things when one tries to get into a new genre.

Except by getting rid of classes (hurrah, I am very happy about this, god how I hate class based systems, anyway you get the idea, I don't like classes) and improving the levelling system they have dealt with the problems your character faced. Would it hurt you so much to have some character definition at the start of the game?

...Its to make it more accessible to new players.

But doesn't it seem odd that your character knows NOTHING at the beginning of the game? It's like they crawled out from under a rock and said 'execute me'. I like starting the game as a pre-defined warrior or rogue or whatever with bonuses that would help me in that general direction. I suppose I can spend the first 4 or 5 hours of each game trying to gain those bonuses I should have had at the very beginning, but dang what a waste of time.