A small observation on the amount of spells in the game : V - Skyrim

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:17 am

I think it's all about quality>quantity, there were more spells in oblivion and morrowind than skyrim, but they weren't that detailed, or balanced. In past elder scrolls mages had a lot more power, they had many powerful spells, could open any lock they wanted, or summon some overpowered monster with a huge duration to clear out a room without having to do any work themselves. There were a lot more spells but they came with a lot more flaws.

In skyrim there is a definate lack of spells, but what they make up is balance and more detail included in each individual spell. An example would be in oblivion all 3 of the destruction spells, frost, fire and shock. Were exactly the same damage dealing spells with almost no differences. In skyrim they have different affects, such as frost does damage to the targets health as well as stamina, and shock does damage to magicka too. This makes spells more diverse and each have benefits. I personally would rather have a more in depth spell system with a smaller arsenal rather than a whole array of spells which are not in depth.

Also in previous elder scrolls you could make your own spells. This made the magic system more interesting as you could create fun and unique spells, although it also lead to a lot of abuse and game breaking spells. The lack of spellmaking in skyrim is a dissapointment, but from the developers point of view it has stopped players from creating these overpowered spells.

But all in all I personally don't care about the combat or magic system in the elder scrolls games. All they would have to do for me is bring out an elder scrolls with 500% more books and they would instantly have me as a buyer.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:34 am

Magic in this game feels like an afterthought, as if they set out to make a hack and slash game and only added a handful of spells to appease the non-God-of-War crowd. Or it's just the way you make games these days - create them, gut them down to the barebones, then sell the missing parts as DLC.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:55 am

I hate what they've done with magic. It's no longer magical in any way. It's mechanical, and heavily restricted. So you go to the store to buy a new spell, awesome. Where did that spell come from? Who made it? Why can't I?

They have all these mages tooling around the college apparently researching magic. Pointless. Did anyone bother to tell them that there's nothing but a short list of preset spells in the game? Their research is for nothing, since they can't come up with anything new anyway.

For whatever reason, Bethesda has turned their magic system into a system of guns and ammo. You buy new guns if you need them, and you stock up on ammo for the rest of the game. Stupid stupid stupid, that's all I have to say.

Opinion piece.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:44 am

I agree. I went into The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim feeling thoroughly optimistic that Bethesda knew what they were doing. I wouldn't mind losing spellmaking as long as spell effects scale properly—they don't. On top of that, not just a few, but dozens of very useful spell effects and cast types (on self, on target, ect) for some effects are completely gone. It is very dissapointing and doesn't feel very well implemented in many circumstances.

I just hope Bethesda adds more spells with future downloadable content.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:47 am

Rant

Either you are a troll or really stupid. TES games have always been about the freedom of choice. Maybe I don't want to use my shouts? Maybe I want to role a character who isn't the dragonborn? In terms of magic Bethesda has greatly limited people top what they can do.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:52 am

It will be a cold day in hades before I pay for DLC for this game. All of these issues should have been resolved before release and the lack of spell power and customizable spells is absolutely unforgivable. The delay of the construction kit (thanks Steam, you worthless crapfest) is ridiculous as well. Without Steam the construction kit would have been out already and players could have fixed this ourselves.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:30 am

Magic in this game feels like an afterthought, as if they set out to make a hack and slash game and only added a handful of spells to appease the non-God-of-War crowd. Or it's just the way you make games these days - create them, gut them down to the barebones, then sell the missing parts as DLC.

Well most everything feels a little bit like an afterthought to be honest. I think the problem is that they had so many features they wanted to put in they ended up not having time to properly flesh out some of those features. This is one of the reasons there should be a spell-maker in Skyrim, it's just not possible for Bethesda it would seem to handle all of their project and think about every spell they needed to make, so much like with mods allowing spell-making would allow the fans to flesh-out the magic system for themselves a little bit more allowing not only PC users who will get mods anyway to get quick access to better spells but console users too who may have to wait a long time for a patch or even perhaps a DLC which they may have to pay for.

I don't really think Bethesda can be bashed too much though, one can't say "I'm going to find a cure for cancer and I'll do it before 11.11.11" and one doesn't say "I'm going to make TES:V along with other games and I will do it before 11.11.11" but that's besides the topic. I just wish we could know right now if we will ever have more spell variety or not, I'd gladly put my main play-through on a hold until I can get my hands on some more Alteration spells, but if we could get a confirmation that we won't ever get more spells or a spell maker I could go through my main play-through without feeling I finished it too soon, like I did at a time I shouldn't have done it rather than at a time where I could have gotten more out of my experience with that particular character.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:28 am

I guess I'm the only one who likes the new magic then

I never felt connected at all to the magic in Morrowind or in Oblivion, I just felt like I was shooting colors at people.
Yes, there's less spells now but they feel more robust to me and they actually feel like spells.
I also like the idea of utilizing all your spells to get the most out of a situation.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:35 pm

I guess I'm the only one who likes the new magic then

I never felt connected at all to the magic in Morrowind or in Oblivion, I just felt like I was shooting colors at people.
Yes, there's less spells now but they feel more robust to me and they actually feel like spells.
I also like the idea of utilizing all your spells to get the most out of a situation.

They could have easily made the magic "feel more robust" without altering the number of spells in the game, or our ability to make our own. The graphics and effects of a spell can be amped up without any need to reduce the capabilities of the system. In fact, if you have to minimize the functionality of the feature in order to make it prettier... well. 'Nuff said on that one.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:43 am

I guess I'm the only one who likes the new magic then

I never felt connected at all to the magic in Morrowind or in Oblivion, I just felt like I was shooting colors at people.
Yes, there's less spells now but they feel more robust to me and they actually feel like spells.
I also like the idea of utilizing all your spells to get the most out of a situation.

Substantially less spells considering that they don't scale. So once you reach over level 35 you are really using only a few spells effectively, and once over 45 you aren't using any effectively other than to summon atro's or demons to fight for you, which is pretty anticlimatic. But the first 20 levels of play on the mage is very fun, I grant them that.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:59 am

The removal of spellmaking has removed the magic from TES.

I have said that before the game was out, and now I have played 150 hours this opinion has not changed.

Its.. plasmids.
Its streamlining, its simplification, call it what you want.
In the end we have gone from a magic system that allowed you to do anything to a totally boxed in one.
And the saddest part is that other games have better magic systems.
It is sheer unbelievable, and 10 years ago would have been laughable, that another gamemaker would have more diverse, interesting and useful magic than TES.

Blast it, why cant I dismiss my familiar when I want to?
Why cant I cast waterbreathing, or anything pre-set as on other on a follower?
Where is waterwalking?
Where is open?

Agreed. As someone who used to enjoy pure mages, the lack of spellmaking was my biggest worry before the game was out, and remains my biggest complaint. The magic system isn't fun now. I'd gladly trade all the flashy graphical effects for the return of spellmaking.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:50 am

I'd like to be able to make custom spells. Having that gone kinda svcks.

Its like removing a juicy meatball from a delectable meatball sub. Youre munching along and everything's delicious when suddenly you get a mouthful of bland bread and stop to go "What's this?!?! My beefy goodness is strangely absent!!!"

The rest of the sandwich is still pretty tasty though. I like the new sauce they used. It has more flavour and less fat.

*its near dinner time and Im hungry*

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:04 am

The most basic parts of the game feel a bit underwhelming .. for example Morthal ( one of the major holds in the game) doesn't even have a general trader.
Also, why can't I just pay a mage to enchant my weapon with a spell .. the same for alchemy and smithing. A blacksmith's main job is creating weapons and since he is indefinitely more skilled at it than I am, why not just ask him to create me a blade.

A lot of work for the modders and maybe the dev's (if they hear our requests)

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:30 am

I guess I'm the only one who likes the new magic then

I never felt connected at all to the magic in Morrowind or in Oblivion, I just felt like I was shooting colors at people.
Yes, there's less spells now but they feel more robust to me and they actually feel like spells.
I also like the idea of utilizing all your spells to get the most out of a situation.

IDD, magic didn't feel very magical in Morrowind or Oblivion. It was just shooting, touching things with colors what did X effect and Y amount of damage for Z amount of time, felt pretty stupid, thats why i never really used magic in those games. But i still wish they would add spellcrafting to Skyrim because coolest spells are also the lowest level spells and i'd like them to be useful after level 10.

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:21 pm

It will be a cold day in hades before I pay for DLC for this game. All of these issues should have been resolved before release and the lack of spell power and customizable spells is absolutely unforgivable. The delay of the construction kit (thanks Steam, you worthless crapfest) is ridiculous as well. Without Steam the construction kit would have been out already and players could have fixed this ourselves.

I wouldn't be so sure about the CK though. It took Oblivion a month or so to release it as well.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:43 am

Spell making made ES magic what it was. I said I wouldn't play mage at all this game till a mod fixed this. I changed my mind and tried it anyways and have about 50-60 hours in now. I can now say with out being ignorant that spell making is a what makes a mage interesting to play. Also disappointed in the loss of boatloads of spell effects...

Not for me. I saw Spellmaking as nothing more than a fun, but ultimately not needed, luxury.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:01 am

About making spells more robust and such I realize it may have been a lot of effort making a spell like "Fire Rune" work and look properly, but why only have an Apprentice level of the spell ? Why not a weaker Novice and a stronger Adept, Expert and Master version of the spell too ? Heck they could have the same look and such as the Apprentice spell just with different numbers for damage. And of course I can't leave without bringing up shield on target again. They already have a shield on self spell of every ranking level, would it have been so hard to make a spell with the same animation as "Magelight" with perhaps a slightly different color that would give the same glow on an NPC as it gives you when you cast a shield spell on yourself and the increase in armor to boot ?

Already I've mentioned 9 spells (the other 4 ranks of Fire Rune and 5 ranks of shield on other) that could be added to the game without making any new animations.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:49 am

As a stealthy character, the only school of magic Ive delved into is illusion(and I have not gotten very far, still only in 30's). Unfortunetly for me, I wated untill I was about lvl 28 to do this. I looked at the list of spells for it, and all I have to say is... dang it. Now that there's no spells that make people like you more, all I can do is frenzy, fear, calm, and uplift people. OK, I supose I can make that work, I dont need muffle and invis., I have very high lvls/perks in sneak, so they wont do me any good.
So, I go to try out my manipulation spells. I cast them, and on most enimies,(aka, all of them except the ones that I dont need the spells help with), I get this " (insert enemy) IS TO HIGH A LVL FOR THIS SPELL". OK, so I look at the perk tree. There are perks that allow you to cast on higher lvls, but you need to be a certian a skill to get them. How can I do it if all the enemies are to high a lvl? Looks like Ill have to grind muffle to get my skill up. I havnt even used all forms of magic yet, and Im allready not liking it. And after reading what every one els is saying, Illusion seems to have been gimped the least! :facepalm:

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:54 am

I recently managed to get daggerfall to run in my computer. I only played it a bit since im concentrating in skyrim but i noticed something interesting in the game: spells scale with you. When i started the game i had a spell called "shock" that had 20 power. After gaining a few levels my "shock" now deals 25 damage. The spell menu says that for every level of destruction this spell does an aditional 1 point of damage so im guessing that by level 100 it would deal 120 damage, an increase of 600% the original power. I dont know if daggerfall had spellcrafting but if all spells work like this then i doesnt need it, even the novice level "shock" can be useful the entire game. I think that if skyrim had this system it would have worked well even without spellmaking. But no, they removed spellmaking and replaced it with... armor crafting? marriage? pickpocket?. It doesnt make sense.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:52 am

I recently managed to get daggerfall to run in my computer. I only played it a bit since im concentrating in skyrim but i noticed something interesting in the game: spells scale with you. When i started the game i had a spell called "shock" that had 20 power. After gaining a few levels my "shock" now deals 25 damage. The spell menu says that for every level of destruction this spell does an aditional 1 point of damage so im guessing that by level 100 it would deal 120 damage, an increase of 600% the original power. I dont know if daggerfall had spellcrafting but if all spells work like this then i doesnt need it, even the novice level "shock" can be useful the entire game. I think that if skyrim had this system it would have worked well even without spellmaking. But no, they removed spellmaking and replaced it with... armor crafting? marriage? pickpocket?. It doesnt make sense.

It had spellmaking.
Spellmaking's first benefit is about versatility. You got to create any spell and effect you wanted, with any range, any area of effect, on touch, ranged, damage, duration etc etc and you could even combine them. And it was not imbalanced because it had the respective mana costs. It was the mage's greatest joy and tool.

Creating a spell also felt like you were a real mage was immersive and made magic A LOT more fun... Now i just hear the npc's talking at the college in Winterhold about how they experiment in new spells and telling me that i should be careful with my experiments. WHAT EXPERIMENTS?!

Really give spell making back, and add some of the effects of previous games in it!!! Like absorb X, disintegration etc etc... grrrrrrrrrrrrrr :banghead:

PS: I won't comment on the "colors". It's simply because graphic's evolved and has nothing to do with this.

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:29 am

Without illusion in Skyrim Mages are just flame arrow shooting warriors with a essential companion. And illusion is a really sparse tree, so it is sad that it is the only thing that gives mages any scope.

am i the only one who felt screwed as a conjurer in this game just a stupid ghost dog three atronachs a dremora lord tf wheres bob the skeleton wheres the summon dragon priest/lich spell, dammit wheres the deadroth, the clanfear no skamps, no spider deadra, no xivilia ? conjuration got screwed man.....BAD MONKEY :banghead:

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:43 am

Look on the bright side...maybe they're actually working on an epic spell-crafting tree, something similar to the power building system in the old Champions RPG (Literallly a "do anything" system..if you wanted a power that shot custard cream pies at the target that turned them into 6 legged wombats, you could do it) and it's just not ready yet?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:30 pm

am i the only one who felt screwed as a conjurer in this game just a stupid ghost dog three atronachs a dremora lord tf wheres bob the skeleton wheres the summon dragon priest/lich spell, dammit wheres the deadroth, the clanfear no skamps, no spider deadra, no xivilia ? conjuration got screwed man.....BAD MONKEY :banghead:

I agree - and to think that conjuration is the less screwed tree, because even the first (flame) atronach is viable in late game and it's worth summoning sometimes.

Also a question: when i hit 75 conjuration i got the dremora lord summon. It is way more powerful than any atronach (improved) and any corpse i tried ressurecting. Am i missing something here? What are the improved perks and the other summons for?

» Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:37 pm

How can I do it if all the enemies are to high a lvl? Looks like Ill have to grind muffle to get my skill up.

Maybe find some innocent peasant kid or chicken to practice on?

» Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:02 pm

Look on the bright side...maybe they're actually working on an epic spell-crafting tree, something similar to the power building system in the old Champions RPG (Literallly a "do anything" system..if you wanted a power that shot custard cream pies at the target that turned them into 6 legged wombats, you could do it) and it's just not ready yet?

Interviewer: One thing that when I was down to see you guys at the studio was stuff related to how spells would interact with each other and that kind of thing. And I would suspect that the results of your experimentation on that would have an affect on whether you have anything like spellcrafting, right?

Todd: “Yeah, spellcrafting is a real wildcard. Something that we’ve done a lot. And there are pluses and minuses to it. We’d like to find… we have some ideas that we really like on how to solve that, and I don’t know where that’s going to go. But the thing that we DON’T like about the previous systems that we’ve done, is it becomes very “spread-sheety.” It takes the magic out of magic. You got to see the game, but your listeners haven’t. There’s a bigger emphasis on how the magic physically acts. Just a spell like fire; there are different spells for how the fire moves. Like putting down a rune that explodes when you walk over it. Or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground, like you’re spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceiling. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands. Or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance. So our main goal is to make magic feel like this arcane powerful thing. And once it goes into a spreadsheet in the game where you can just say I want something at this distance and this power, it removes the illusion of like how this stuff actually works. So we have some ideas of ways around that, but we don’t know where those are going to go yet. We do have the benefit of, we’re really, really happy with how the magic plays in the game, both visually and mechanically. And then being able to do it with both hands. There are opportunities there for combinations and things you can do without getting into the spreadsheet aspect of it. Which I do know some people like, but it does take away from the impact of the spells that you’re finding and mechanically how they work.”

TL:DR : A bunch of PR shenanigans, saying that having a few specific spells will give a more "magic" feeling to the game and make them feel more unique! Oh yes that's what he says................. not even a good excuse like technical issues or something. In other words "broken or not, we will get rid of it".

So for TES:VI what will it be? Having like 3 spells so that they feel unique and powerful?