mm. I agree. If it's done well, it will be a welcome addition.

You are 100% right but it doesn't mean anything to me. Because nothing you have said is valid to this argue.

I still believe it would be silly to play a smart altmer without intellegent. if you want to know why read my comments in page 1 and 2



Im not american

Anyway, those does not apply on ES at all and do not apply on roleplaying ><
The ethnic definition is clear at ES and its not something that changes in terms of how you interact with your invironment, not because TES has unreal feeling but because the races are significantly differend regardless to what they do and where they are.(unlike human who change and act differently depending on where arey are and what they have to do. The change in TES races in much much deeper than humans in our world)

you do realize how racist and rude you're sounding, right?

seriously, you're being a huge racist, and a HUGE hypocrite...

saying orcs are rude, but you prancing around acting high and mighty, acting better than them, and everyone else?

if anything, the high elves that believe such things are actually FAR more rude than even the rudest orc.

how can you hope this topic doesnt have flames, when you're talking like this? :rolleyes:

YES there's more than one of us! (besides everyone else who's not American) join the revolution!!!

If the races are significantly different regardless of what they do and where they are, then if they what they do and where they are is exactly the same, then they will end up still being significantly different....

So... We have the polynesian members of the rugby team, and the european members of the rugby team... They look VERY distinct from one another, in the same way as Altmer and Dunmer do... and they are doing exactly the same thing as one another, more or less, and where they are is exactly the same (in terms of members of the one team). They obviously look very physically fit. Yet if you look at the Europeans the are considerably more lean in muscle than the Polynesians are.

On the contrary, that does apply to ES because it shows the same group of people doing the same activity, with the same amount of training, motivation etc. have different physical attributes based on their race... Which, excuse me if I'm wrong, is exactly what this thread is about and what you yourself are saying...

Yes, it's deplorable. The National Association for the Advancement of Green People will be all over this place like ants on a lollipop.

How they look =/= their attributes are the same

And yes, im saying that if an orc and al high elf would do the exactly same things, the orc will still be ruder and the altmer smarter. And not because they dont look alike, because they have something deeply that is not alike.


I do not consider look as an attribute change. Everyone in real life can develop and will have the same potential, because we are all humans. Thats what i believe, arabs, jews, black people, white people, asians, etc. All can accomplish the same given the same conflicts and paths in life.

In elder scrolls we are not all humans, and there are differences that are more deep. just like dog and cow are not the same.

P.s - im from israel

The trick to not set the topic on flames is not taking seriously people like you who cant make the switch in their mind between real life and elder scrolls.

"Hey Orc! My Int is 50, yours is 40. I'm smarter then you!"

Oh yeah, so immersion.

Try reading comments.

Edit: ahhh ill say again shortly. There is a fact that some races are GENERALY smarter than others. Its being proved by base attributes.
While characters cant actualy see their attributes obviously, the attributes who were developed by bethesda are still saying something. The fact that bethesda decided to give altmers 50 base int while giving 30 to orcs DOES mean something. And it is beiong implied in the game itself.
In skyrim, the only difference will be magic power, there will be no actual intellegent differences and therefor less immersion.

We all know high elves are the rude ones anyway

^^ i dont find them rude. I find them seeing themselves so high above others that they dont pay enough attention to them. And that is rude

In Oblivion/Morrowind/Daggerfall/Arena the only difference intelligence bought was magic power.

The character's visible intellect never based on the intelligence stat.

It was, It was implied. didnt you notice that altmers used to talk highly and smart? orcs brutaly?
It was very much implied.

Also, It was something important to me. Just imagining im smart is not enough.

And was that coming from a number or a writer?


Roleplaying is not easy. You have to roleplay some things that can't be recreated in game environment. Intelligence is one of them. Leave physical things to game, focus on roleplaying your dumb orc or smart elf.

Can't be bothered to read 7 pages, just my pointless, to be ignored opinion :
I'm smarter than you Orc, I am better at casting spells, I am also as deadly with my shortsword as you are with your axe, but it's pretty obvious you are stronger, I am useless with a shield, and can hardly move in full plate. I notice that while I use my mind to open locks, by harnessing mystical forces, you are handy with a set of picks, you must have a bit more manual dexterity than me, despite your obvious strength.

I don't know about DF/Ar but in MW intelligence affected alchemy. Why do you think the 'alchemy abuse' was such a problem by continuously drinking and re-making fortify intelligence potions?
And it affected enchanting success.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Alchemy
http://uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Enchant
Yes I suppose I could look up DF/Ar too but this will suffice.

So alchemy abuse was a problem for Bethesda so they removed the effect of intelligence (they should have just made it influence alchemy less, not remove it entirely of course).
Enchanting was removed entirely for being overpowered (true, but was that the only solution? And the best solution?).
Now enchanting is back (guess they found a better fix). Perfect opportunity to make intelligence matter for more than just magicka, but no they remove attributes entirely. And Todd Howard uses intelligence as his defense. "All you did was raise magicka". Yeah, so have intelligence affect other things!! You have enchanting back!! Are you dense Todd?

Sorry, you and me are are on the wrong page completely

when you say attributes, you just mean personality and emotional intelligence, don't you? Likewise no obvious, physical measurement of either of those two traits which would be betrayed by genetics. Gotcha!

I wonder what category both Alchemy and Enchant could be found...

oh yeah, MAGIC.

And you can also raise your alchemy, enchant and any other intelligence based skills by... raising them yourself.

I really can't understand most people around here... Some are actually stating things as if Todd and Beth is lying to us. Lying is a HORRIBLE way of commercializing your product, and ofcourse, there's absolutely NO reason for them to lie. You want flat out facts? Here they are:
{FACT} - Todd said they're making races more unique by working on the differences between them.


{FACT} - It has been stated that everything attributes did is still in the game, in the way of perks, skills, or other.


{FACT} So from that, we concluded that races will be different from one another, because we're all logical people here, we know that Beth won't just create different meshes and say "Now they are different, dorg."

{SPECULATION - because I didn't try the new system yet} As for the matter of "I want the game to handle attributes for me, and not the other way around", I respect your personal will, but they're creating a system which allows more variation in character development now, and I seriously prefer this system (which I didn't even try yet) to the older, more dumber, ways of character development used in past ES games. So TES shouldn't suffer from your loss of attributes, you want things the same but better, while ES looks forward and wants to get ahead. This new system allows for more depth in character creation, so personally? I think it's a HUUUUGE step forward.

{FACT} And by the way people... just so everyone would know, it hasn't been proven anywhere that some races are naturally smarter than others, it was, however, stated that some races are dumber, and only due to cultural differences and government types, most of which are governed by dictators.
{FACT} What I'm saying is, Altmer are NOT, by any means, smarter, they're simply feel more noble, and without a doubt, are more gifted in magic power. There's a fine share of smart Orcs, and racism isn't a part of it.

Notice the {FACT} and {SPECULATION} signs please, so that everyone wouldn't twist my words in some way.

Sadly most so called RPG's are taking that route this day and age. Easier to develop a cookie cutter system and shell out more crap

what isn't a fact is that every thing that attributes did are still there, the role play aspects are completly gone.

they are creating a system that allows more character development for the same character who could decide to switch play stlyle mid game. but with out attributes I can't define differences between my characters (aside from just in my head, but thats not why I role play in a game in the first place) or what I mean to say is that the 3 macro attributes cross breed one attribute that kept different class of characters seperate from another are now determined by the same macro attribute and it contradicts the nature of those characters. if you really respect some elses will then don't try to convince them that they are wrong about the things they like, your getting what you want so why rub it in the noses of people who are excluded.

It's been confirmed and told in an interview that EVERYTHING attributes did are still in the game, I've even seen this interview for myself and heard this words come out of Todd's mouth, so yes, it is a fact.

Well if you play the game only to pretend, why can't you pretend that there are attributes?

So your character can change midgame that, instantly means that all characters will be the same...

... no, just no.


But don't you know? Todd is a well known liar! :rolleyes:

Actually - no - that doesn't make it a fact.

Facts can be objectively demonstrated to be true - they're supported by evidence that is perceptible to another party. If I say, "I have a rock in my pocket," that's not necessarily a fact. If, however, I say, "I have a rock in my pocket," then turn my pocket out and show you the rock, then it is a fact. And Todd has yet to turn his pocket out and actually show us the rock.

That's not to say that it's not necessarily a fact - merely to point out that, at this point in time, it cannot accurately be called one. Nitpicky, I know, but still.....

That doesn't make sense since orsimer can have 100 int and altmer can have 100 int

It would make sense if each race would have different maximal stat level

For example orsimer vs. altmer (since you brought that pair) maximal stats

Strength
175 vs 75

Inetilligence
75 vs 175

Willpower
75 vs 150

Agility
100 vs 75

Speed
125 vs 75

Endurance
150 vs 75

Personality
75 vs 150

Luck
100 (for all races, since in my mind luck should act like % modifier to Radiant Story- everything higher is considered as 100%)

Numbers are just for example (my first edition had numbers from 50 to 200, but it was hard to balance, so I decided to go from 75 to 175)
I created such chart for all playable races soon after TES4 came out
This way race could play huge role in gameplay
But then I found out that attributes are canceled -_-