200+ dungeons all unique - eheh yeah


all trees are handplaced! - oh...really..in all my 5 years I've yet to see anything like that


You can make goblins war with each other - ah you didnt mention it was broken


Its better than Morrowind in every conceivable way -- oh lawl


But that game is not Elder Scrolls V. Howard said that there are "no current plans" for another game in that series. --- in 2009.....k...lol so 5 years it was 3 years going in and they had no plans...hmm




Sigh, its not about Todd lying, Bethesda doesnt blatantly lie about things in game, its PR TALK learn to know whats PR and whats actually in game,

I am telling you that I can't role play the way I used too because I used attributes like strength and intellegence to define my characters. those attributes only exist combined together in the 3 macro attributes so I am no longer to do what I once could, not the way I want too. so its not fact, its subject to other points of view, like mine.

and having a skill to replace these. like I have already said, is like writting a story in which the only thing you know about the main character is that he is a good driver or even more relevent: that he is a good swordsman +any other combinations of the skills and perks you want. those are what the character can do, none of those define that persons natural traits, which improve over time. it would be a story a five year old would write.

In spite of being occasionally derailed by pointless arguments (as pretty much all of these threads are wont to do) there's a thread here - http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1193806-modding-in-attributes/ that's dealing pretty well with such ideas - particularly with the notion of attribute maximums and/or ranges being at least in some part dependent upon things like race. You might check it out and maybe move this post from here to there or rewrite it there - though simply copying it and posting it there too would potentially be considered spamming, it'd be a nice addition to that much more level-headed thread, as would any other ideas you have on the topic.

wasn't the point of compensating for certain races being better than others was base increases?

VERY nitpicky... I'm sure you're already aware that I know what is a fact. But if one of the devs steps forward and tells us what they already included in the game, we, as the fans, should treat it as a fact. If you didn't get it from what I said, then you should reread what I've written with the new take I've given you upon my intentions.

And by the way, if we go by your approach we can say "Hey, there might not be a TES V as they didn't show us the game, it's possible that they created a "gameplay" trailer just to fool us", and we all know that these are pure flat out facts. Unless they are LYING, but p-l-e-a-s-e let's be logical here.

Again, big difference between PR/Hype Talk and Fact.

I'm having the feeling you actually don't know the difference between PR and what's actually in the game. Again, you have nothing to back that up. And no... they said 125~+ dungeons, all unique and hand-made. Can't really see your point as in all you did was mock the statements the devs made with no grounds whatsoever, plus, you DO know that they were in VERY early stages, right? You DO know that if they would've advertised that there would be a TES V then it would've created a storm that, if possibly, they couldn't answer the game's demands and eventually canceled the project, it would've created LOTS of rage across the ES community... I HOPE you DO know that.

So you're basically saying that most stories would write "David is superbly strong" rather than "David pushed the guy and smashed his head into the wall"? How is that any better?

Plus, traits are visible due to their consequences, you can't know the traits till you used them. That's what Beth did, and that is all what they did. You can still role-play, although not the way you used to. I know it's harder, but consider it to be, perhaps, a good change. You can't know how many role-playing possiblities you might have with the new system. And ofcourse you can't think of any right now because you haven't tried the new system yet. I say, before bashing it and saying it takes away your role-playing experience, try and and see for yourself. We all know it's not going to change the fact attributes are removed. I have my doubts about it too, EVERYONE have these doubts about this new system, but if they did it, there's probably a good reason behind it. As I'm sure they're not trying to ruin their own game.

And by the way... it's a fact that everything attributes did is still in the game. But as for the personal use of some players regarding them, that's another issue completely.

\Hey Dark Yoohoo thats information from before Oblivion was released, sorry I did not clarify that for you, except for the part about no Elderscrolls 5 in 2009, and yes I can back that up because all that was said prior to Oblivions release save for the no Elderscrolls 5 bit, again PR talk, thats it. google it exactly like that you'll find it

no thats not what I am saying at all. it would equally be stupid if all you knew about a character was what was like and what his natural characteristics are. then you'd just have a biography. what I am saying is that skills do not fill in every thing about character creation when you are telling a story.

being good at alchemy and other things that a smart character would sterotypically know dosn't mean by being an alchemist a character is mutually exclusivly witty or other characteristics. just as being a good sword fighter lumps you in with being a strong character. and even if they did, I play several characters of varying strength and intellegence so if I did base those features on skills they would all eventually and un avoidably get to 100 unless I chose to not use them but they chosing to not use skills is choosing to not play the game in a way that involves those skills. and I can guess what your thinking next, well attributes went to a 100 too. yeah they did, but you don't have to level up all the time. the only action you can't do by avoiding increasing attributes is sleeping, avoiding increasing skills to keep my similar characters defined from each other prevents me from using the skills that define them in the first place.

Ok, first. MK(Omega): Read what I've written once again... I didn't say that it didn't happen. And if I wasn't clear enough, to summarize it for you: If Beth announced a TES V in such early stages (when they don't know if they'll even carry on with the project or if it would be canceled for this or other reasons) it would create a public rage among ES fans. As we all were hoping (for 5 whole years, for some more) that there would be a TES V. Hopefully you understand what I'm saying now, so now you may reply logically.

Now to reply to Mirglof:
I understand what you're saying. But you need to understand there's no REAL difference between the old system and the new one except for perks, which allows you to specialize in whatever you want. If you want to raise all skills to the max, do that, there's no maximum level anyway. But at the same time, you can specialize in specific things, like archery, or alchemy, and such. There's no REAL downside to this, because it's not really different. It just made things more specific.
And not leveling up on purpose destroys a good part of the game... I think you know that, and if you didn't level up on purpose, it means there was a big flaw with the older system (which we all know, they would've kept the part where you would be able to maximize your attributes as well).

What part of my Post above the 2009 announcement did not make sense to you? that what you claim as fact can be applied to what Todd has stated in previous years and turned out not to be true? lol...again make a difference between whats PR/hype and whats fact.


you told me I have nothing to back up the statements said...and yet they are there, not drawn out my ass either, you say I don't know how to make a difference between PR talk and fact, and yet I gave you examples where you would say because a Dev speaks its auto fact, and there we are with 5 statements made by Todd, that werent fact in the game :confused:

When you show me an actual LIE that is not backed up by ANY logical reason, only then I would say you have something there.
And by the way... Beth didn't claim to have hand-placed trees in Oblivion, the engine created the environment, it was randomly generated due to code.
Another thing, the 200+ dungeons may have been stated to be unique, but it may have been unique referring to the time, although I do not remember them saying that.
As for the Goblins: It was known that they downgraded the AI, look at the demo videos of the gameplay.
As for it being better than Morrowind, OFCOURSE they would say that, do you expect them to say otherwise? Plus, it's very much subjective so you can't really r-e-a-l-l-y say anything about that statement.

Seriously, you're going down to the smallest of details. Saying everything Todd says is an actual LIE. No, you're not saying it's PR Talk, you're saying it's a lie. Right now, I would rather believe mr. developer than your pure speculations with no grounds at all.

Show me an ACTUAL lie, then I would listen to anything you have to claim.

EDIT: And by the way, you really don't have anything to back your statements.

Where did I say Todd lies Dark? exactly where in my post did I say -Todd Lies- ? I said Todd does PR talk, its nothing new all game devs do it, and what they say does not -always- translate into the game, the Goblins have nothing to do with Rai not only was this a statement by Todd but it was also in the Game guide released AFTER the game.


heh you know what, I've accumulated about a dozen articles and interviews from 05, and Im not even going to bother like..why am I wasting my time trying to prove whats already there, its not like your going to conceed in any sense, i already told you Todd doesnt -lie- he does PR talk, if you don't see that, what am i supposed to do? I think it was exceptionally foolish of me to even try when someone has an Avatar of Todd as limited baseless as that kind of thinking is yes I know, I can't help but feel so. Good day

If they say something and it wasn't in the game, then it is a lie. If they in fact stated that trees were hand-placed (which they didn't) in Oblivion, then it would've been a lie. It may ALSO be PR-TALK, but also a lie.

I'll give you an example: In skyrim they gave an example of the AI of creatures. Like the Dens wolves have. That is an example of AI.
Another example: If you'll look into the gameplay demo videos of Oblivion, you'll see that Radiant AI is effecting Thunder - the dog as well, and he is a creature. You could see it was dumbed down afterwards when the game was released.

It's a promise Beth did not fulfill, but nonetheless they had logical reasons not to. Now, 5 years later, if they claim to have something in the game, I tend to trust the word of the dev as he knows best what's in the game and what's not. Plus, you have no way of knowing what's PR Talk here and what's actual fact. You could say you do, but you don't, since you've seen just as much as I've seen from the game, and you can interpert that in any direction you'd like, but what you're doing is negating the devs words with, again, nothing to back it up (only a few experiences you've had a few years ago, which was immensely improved upon FO3).

Exactly. You "tend to trust" it. That, however, no matter how many times you erroneously repeat it, does NOT make it a "fact."


Nor, obviously, do you. Yet, even after I already pointed out the fundamental epistemological failure of your use of the word "fact," you continue to use it.

That's really what this little diversion is about. You continue to use the word "fact." You continue to use it incorrectly. It has been pointed out that you continue to use it incorrectly. That's it.

Alright, before I go let me give you an example of PR talk




all of this right here, all of this is PR. giving rational for what he knows will cause a ****storm, with poor undercutting examples and an excuse for instead of changing the original system from Oblivion and games prior, they took it out.

Saw that article where he's like Oblivion missed what made Morrowind special? where he's essentially dumping on Oblivion and saying he Likes Morrowind players? yeah More PR talk, thats what Im talking about when he/they hype things up, downplay otherthings and give half assed reasons for them, thats PR talk, Not lying, not intentionally diceiving anyone its PR talk.





Heh dont remember that, NPC's didnt not change after quests...in fact after saving ryth and being told I could use their house, they ran me out and reported me to the guard.....yeah

Read my earlier posts, I never claimed to know what's PR Talk and what's a fact. He claimed I didn't know, so I claimed he didn't know, then he claimed that he knows based on past experiences, read the conversation and see it for yourself.

As for the term "Fact", you already read my use of this word around here, why do you keep attacking this statement? We, for one, CAN and SHOULD use the words of the devs as facts because otherwise there's nothing left to discuss.

Instead of attacking, answer this question as seriously and logically as possible: Do you really think Todd is lying about attributes still being in the game in some form? Because that's the question at hand.

No he isn't lieing, he's downplaying they are gone, watch the choice of words as he calls H/M/S Attributes folded into 3 now, but we all know 450 health bar on a woodelf doesnt mean Im stronger than an OX


meh I guess its about time this thread got axed, not much in productivity going on here

No, having a high encumbrance limit and doing a lot of damage in melee means you're stronger than an ox.

the real difference is that instead of having a strength and endurance attribute they are mixed together, they still have the same affects on the calculations in the game itself but that does not apply to role play, I have 3 characters that are based on that idea that Endurance and strength are seperate, otherwise they are very similar if not the same. and you could not be farther from the truth when saying it makes things more specific. being specific is about 1=1 (or percision) its like refering specficly action you do when driving a car or just say I was driving a car. the new macro attributes are not 1=1 they are more like 1=3, when I increase on it does several things and it is no longer possible to focus on one of those specific functions that have been wrapped into one attribute. that defies the definition of specfic. you can argue that it makes things better if you want, but it is a false statement to call something that has less modes that controll more functions more specfic to having the number of modes and functions being equal.

NOW you used PR Talk in the right place, but thing is, you can't take him seriously as he's not a dev, he's/she's a reporter and you can't take his statements as facts, as we all know well that reporters tend to give us false information in some cases. You can, however, refer to that Todd Howard quote there, and I can't take that as PR, but as reasoning for removing attributes.

You may find it as PR Talk, but I actually find it logical, and most people find it logical here too, according to recent created polls (just so you'd know, I'm a loyal ES fan and has been for the last 8-9 years, so yeah, I'm old school too, and I have my share of experience from Beth too).

based on what Greg, where did you see this information. because last I check you dont effect encumbrence, and alot of stamina does not = strength


DARK THAT IS A STATEMENT MADE BY TODD>...........I bet you don't even remember how there was supposed to be Soil "erosion" in Skyrim? or that each area of Cyrodiil was supposed represent Eons of growth patterns? ha


same statments he made, for a different site

Know what, I'll invest a little bit and show something to everyone, here is some kind of a chart (not really a chart, but you know what I mean):

Attributes: (taken from the ES wiki)

Agility
Affects your total Fatigue, damage dealt by ranged weapons, and your steadiness in combat.
Endurance
Affects your total Fatigue as well your starting health and your health gain upon leveling up.
Intelligence
Affects your total magicka.
Luck
Affects everything you do in a small way.
Personality
Affects your ability to gain information and better prices from NPCs.
Speed
Affects how fast you move.
Strength
Affects your total encumbrance, your total Fatigue and the damage done by melee attacks.
Willpower
Affects the rate at which magicka regenerates as well as your total Fatigue.

NOTE: I hope you notice how neglectful are all the things that attributes did and how easy it is to move them into other, better, categories in terms of character development.

Derived Attributes

The values of these attributes are quantities that are derived from the character's primary attributes. In general, it is possible to magically alter these derived values either directly (e.g., Fortify Magicka) or indirectly via the primary attribute (e.g., Fortify Intelligence).

Health
The total damage you can take before you die.
Magicka
The magical energy used to cast spells.
Fatigue
Your physical energy reserves.
Encumbrance
The mass of items you can carry.



Now, notice the new system, as describe (based on statements from Todd, not speculations):

"When people hear there are perks…Well there are perks, but they’re not like Fallout, in that each skill has its own perk tree. So take one handed for instance. The idea is, you have a one-handed skill, and then you can perk that – there’s like a skill tree underneath one-handed, and within that there are separate perk areas for maces and then axes and then swords. So opposed to having, say, an axe skill, that is a part of the perk tree within one-handed." Todd Howard.

First, we have 3 main derived attributes: Health, Mana and Stamina (which is practically fatigue).

Health - Mana - Stamina

Spread upon 18 skills.

Spread upon 280+ perks.

All of the above governs the 8 removed attributes.




Nothing was merged together except for one handed weapons and two handed weapons. Everything else was seperated. Making a more detailed system which offers more options, which you can clearly see according to the above.

If anything, Endurance was spread upon those 18 skills and 280+ perks and, most likely, in other places too. Raising you health may just mean you're raising you health rather than "Health is the new combined Strength and Endurance", now they're devided into more parts so we can have a better build of our character, in the perspective of detailed, more balanced game system. And no, that is no speculation.

MK(Omega):
Yes, it is a statement made by Todd, what's your point? My earlier post is still valid. I said that you can refer to his statement, and that's ok, but it seems reasonable to me and to most of this forum's community. As for the reporters opinion in that other article you gave, that is something we can't take seriously as he's giving his own perspective and opinion on the matter.

:facepalm: both articles are Todds statements...not someone speaking for him........and your example is based on what you see, not what was said....