I always hated intelligence attribute...

We dont have them on real life because we cant measure them. Thats why we dont have attributes. I see you didnt see my edit, so ill type it here again - Altmers do base on their attributes. They do not go and say "I have 87 intelligence AZZAH!" but they do consider themselves generally smarter because they simply are. And the player knows altmers aren't just having a nose up in the sky for no reason, he knows they are simply right.
Im not saying I should know everyones attributes! I do not! But I am saying the player(not talking about you or me who knows that) should know generally what is the general character of the race and the best way to let a player understand that is by showing the race base attributes.

About your last paragraph - hmm ok? never said you couldn't. there is no discussion here about what a player can or cant do, its his free will and thats something we cant bound to attributes. It will be just meaning he is not a role player. And this all discussion (if you have noticed) is about how the attributes are being role played. Ignoring role play and jumping cliffs is always possible at any open world game.



Now thats because you cant get enough voice actors to implement such thing.



Pfffft I was talking about how I play the game. I never said "all elfs are like DERP and all orcs are HERP." I said there are general differences. Ofcurse anyone can be anything


I agree, still, it doesn't close the discussion or even taking it step forward

The people of Tamriel can't measure their intellect or their endurance or anything better than we can.

If you just showed me the attributes of a race, I would know very little about them. I learn about the races by seeing the members of that race in action, and talking to them, and learning about them. Stats tell me little-to-nothing.

I've met plenty of stupid Altmer. I would disagree that Altmer are smarter, they're just arrogant and obnoxious, but they're naturally powerful wizards, so obviously they get a bump to the Intelligence stat for more magicka.


The point is, you don't have to be magically adept to be smart. A stealthy assassin who never touches magicka can be just as intelligent as a mage. Yes, you need to be intelligent to use magicka, but they're not mutually tied to each other. It's like math. You need to be smart to have a good grasp on math, but you don't need to have a good grasp on math to be smart.

I don't see what the values of attributes actually do in terms of roleplaying. You could only see your own attributes and not those of others so you couldn't tell intelligence by anything other than dialogue and that won't change.

You can still roleplay as someone more intelligent, nothing really changed in that aspect.

The only problems with attributes was the leveling system. With attributes gone, they are at least not giving us a head ache anymore o_O

You are completely ignoring that when one starts playing elder scrolls he is basing his information on what he sees first and that sticks. The first thing he sees is the character creation. Yep, the attributes. There he will decide what race he wants to be, basing it MUCH on attributes.

About your meetings around the world, general attributes for a race does not define the whole race. So yes, some can be not intellegent (not that you will know) but its always just a statistic digression. Ofcurse you can say "all altmers are dumb" basing that on their actions but that would be subjective and not true.



Sadly its true on TES, every point of intelligence is making you a better spell caster. It doesn't mean you have to use spells or even learn them - but if you will you will sure have the advantage of being intellegent. So there is a strong relation, not mutually but strong. You just dont have to use that relation.

Btw you keep bringing words into my mouth. This whole mutual relation thingy. I never said intellegence=magic. I said opposite if any, I said it has much more immersion plus it makes sense that my magic is being powerd by my mind. Giving magic even more immersion. I dont see how that became magic=intellegence and you must use it. Im pretty sure I was sticking to the other side all along.

Attributes were flawed in Both Oblivion and Morrowind. They interfered too much with the skills. Skyrim fixes that flaw but I don't think they should've gotten rid of attributes. How is someone going to be able to determine how strong they are, How smart they are, The Speed at which they run, if your main stats are determined by base numbers that can't be changed, Perks, and Skills. Imperial A might be smarter then Imperial B but Imperial B is faster and stronger. Under Skyrim's system from what it looks like right now, Imperials A and B will start out the same unlike in Oblivion where you could have more customization at the beginning. That I think is the bigger problem alongside getting rid of Attributes completely. Oblivion's Attribute system had to go but they could've kept them in and had them like Fallout 3.

Why? They are not mutually exclusive and most people that want attributes back, also want perks. But, I too grow tired of the thousandth attribute discussion.

Are we talking Morrowind or Oblivion? Because you couldn't see any attributes on Oblivion until after you picked your race. You were given a brief but appropriate description and that was it. Also, I've never based my choice of character on attributes.


But the point is, Intelligence stat =/= Actual in-game intelligence, as in capacity for knowledge or otherwise "smartness."


If I'm putting words into your mouth, it's because I'm trying to figure out why you seem to want attributes like Intelligence in the game but then turn around and make my own argument for me. A lack of the Intelligence attribute does not hinder how intelligent your character is, nor should it influence your feelings about your character at all. You're creating this character, you decide if he or she is intelligent, the same as you'd decide if he or she, as an Altmer, worships Auri-El or the Nine Divines, or a Daedra, or whatever.

The Intelligence attribute was nothing more than a means to increase your magicka. Any other meaning it had to you or anyone else is all in your head and is not lost.

To you.

To me, the intelligence attribute (and strength and agility and the rest) were fundamental defining characteristics of the character, and the amount of magicka (or encumbrance or HP or what-not) that s/he had as a result were secondary.

Hale is dumb. That's a primary feature of that character. The fact that he has less magicka than another character is a consequence of the fact that he's dumb, but his defining characteristic in that regard is specifically and entirely that he's dumb. Everything else is secondary to that fact. Hale is strong. That's a primary feature of that character. The fact that he has more encumbrance, more fatigue and does more melee damage are all consequences of the fact that he's strong, but his defining characteristic in that regard is that he's strong. Everything else is secondary to that fact.

And I could go on, but either that's sufficient to make the point or the point's never going to be made.

Daggerfall(jk, it was pretty randomized) Even at OB, you could check out the stats on wiki (I did so) If you were interested enough.


Thats very much dpending on how do you role play.


Sorry I was not clear enough then.
Did I make the arguement for you by saying intellegent does not mean you have to use magic? Im glad I could help you. its not like im trying to get head to head with you all the time until one falls. For me we are having a conversation and im happy of it. Look Im just explaining my thoughts and concerns.
However, I did not say intellegent does not eual to how intellegent your character is. Sure you can always play like a smart character while having low intellegent, but to me it will feel very silly. I will feel pretending too much. (Btw im using int as an example, I could use any other stat aswell. Int just has the biggest concern for me because i like roleplaying intellegent characters). Thats just me and i guess thats too subjective to be argued (?)



Thats too subjective. To her - well thatrs fair. If to you its different play it different, as i was just saying above in my comment.

EDIT
I do see what you are saynig btw. But even while making a strong character you can pretend he is also inttelegent and you can also throw away spells with him, imagining they are effective. Ofcurse the game will say otherwise but aslong as you pretend that magic does not being effected from your intellegent it would be fine. (I also find it silly, but i can't argue over opinions)

As I said already, if you want your character to be dumb, and thus have a small pool of magicka, then don't put points into magicka when you level up. Putting points into magicka is the equivalent of putting points into Intelligence, this idea that he was dumb to go along with that was all in your head, so you don't need that Intelligence attribute to tell you what you already knew.

Your character is not a bunch of statistics. Hale is dumb. Hale is not "30 Intelligence."

I just don't understand why you need "Numbers" to tell you that.

You take a leap of imagination to say that an arbitrary number defines how "Smart" or how "Dumb" a character is, why can't you just define the character without the numbers in the first place? I mean, I'm not pro-attribute removal or anything, but the condescending attitude of the "Attribute" crowd just doesn't make sense. "All INT score is to you is magicka.", to which I have to say, that's all it ever was. You're taking an imaginative leap in telling yourself it made you "Smarter", as much a leap as it would take you to just cut out the arbitrary scores and define your character on behavior/action instead.

You know, true roleplaying.

Dear OP don't go around calling them orcs stupid, or I'll start flamin.

Orcs are dumb. "Me Orc. Me smash stuff. Me smarter than Troll."

Speaking of which, I hope theres a suicide Troll note. That was hilarious in Oblivion.

Perks have nothing to do with it. I'm looking forward to seeing what they've done with a perk tree for each skill.

Role-playing <> Real Life

Are you sure? http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Intelligence :rofl:

Will Skyrim be awesome, even without attributes? I'm certain it will. But, attributes are a defining characteristic of a role-playing game. They will be missed.

Whats INT?

"You look like a person who wanted to increase their magicka, so they directly spent points in increasing magicka instead of having to detour through intelligence!" :read:

No one here is going to be convinced that either system is/was better for roleplay until the game comes out. All I can say is that I hope the loss of arbitrary numbers representing things like intelligence and personality are replaced with something that'll let your actions do the talking. A player who takes his time figuring out the best approach to handle a mission by talking to NPCs and reading the in-game books for a little more background on what they may be doing can be considered "smarter" than a character who runs in smashing everything in the face with a hammer. That way you'll actually be playing your character instead of playing a set of numbers.

not worth it

Ya... just pumping intellect then not playing intelligently kinda kills the point of the attribute.

You can always increase health and stamina and say that he is strong without having a strength stat. I do not think it will be hard to do. Encumbrance and damage are probably going to be tied into stamina... since you can do more power moves and lift for a longer time before tiring, but that is just me guessing.

Not a fair comparison. In real life, we don't have stats and numbered statistics, but we're more than stick figures.


Encumbrance, melee damage, and the amount of fatigue are all still in the game and can still be manipulated by the player. Increasing your Strength attribute was the middle man, so it was removed. The fact remains: Hale is strong. Just because he doesn't have a Strength attribute doesn't mean he isn't. It's like real life. You wouldn't think "real-life Hale" is strong because he has a high number next to his "Strength" stat, you'd think he's strong because he can carry a lot of weight, he hits hard with melee weapons, and he can perform strenuous physical activities longer than others.

The imaginative leap is that this "Strength" stat actually makes any difference whatsoever--outside of your imagination--when the things it governs are moved elsewhere. It was all in your head before, the only difference is now there's no number and no visible attribute. It's a move toward realism. Hale is still strong. Altmer are still intelligent. Nothing has changed.

Well, at least now, in Skyrim, you'll see the true difference between wisdom, intelligence and magicka.

Plus, what's the point of pretending when you can actually see the world and interact wth the people and go into amazing battles.

Also, just so you'd know, Altmer aren't smarter than other races, they are magically gifted, which are unrelated in any way, they DO have they're nose up and think they're the smartest. For general knowledge.

Best...avatar...ever.

At any rate, they said that the things the atributes handled were being handled elsewhere, so we'll have to wait an see if that holds true. I like the idea that I'll be able to rp as a smart warrior without a number telling me otherwise.

This offends me as I'll be playing an Orc :flamethrower: