But they said that it's easier with out the attributes so i think they know what there doing better then you do. You don't need a number for how smart you are cuz you can just have how much magic you have instead. Why does it matter if you think a elf is smarter then a orc or not it doesn't make a difference to beating it except for how much magic you have.

Wow...this thread took a crap quick.....


K first statement, No, no you wont, because wisdom and intelligence don't exist in Skyrim, just Magicka as far as the character is concerned.

my 2nd point.

in a attribute thread THAT ALREADY EXISTS http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1193538-how-will-the-game-world-work-without-attributes/

I stated how the half assed rational of using "people just raising INT purely for Magicka" as a reason to completely remove attributes as beyond stupid, and that Vampires,Werewolves, Stat altering potions, ingredients, Stat altering spells that make fighters weak and useless, Drinks (ala Morrowind) reason to consum food and Alchemy in general all become moot because they delt with Attributes. in Skyrim Beth had the perfect opportunity to make a comprehensive Perks Skills Attribute system or APS that was superior to what was in prior games, NO attributes shouldnt be exactly like they were in prior games, those had flaws, make it better make it different. They had 5 years and the best solution was axing it? this "cutting out the middle" man is nothing new, from the options of Fast travel from Morrowind to Oblivion "instead of walking across the city to a carriage, just click your magick map!" and a whole host of other things.

What is there going to be a Vampire/Werewolf Skill? and whats the point of Alchemy besides making some poison to damage Health? all that Variation of meat in the concept art means what now? not like they would do anything beyond restore health at this point.

and In before someone uses the "raising H/M/S will do so and so and so" Um NO it does not, it just raises the Numerical value of that stat, and until Todd says otherwise anything else is just conjecture.


and the "why do you need numbers to tell you so and so" can be applied to every other part of the game, why do you need numbers to tell you how much health/Magicka/Stamina you have? or how much damage a weapon or spell does? etc etc etc

The game runs by Numbers, and it tells you what your character can and cannot do in the gameworld Independant of your Imagination/RP which does not reflect whats going on in the game, thinking my character is a Daedric God of Pwnage who's widely known as such and can past a man at level 1 just by thinking it does not translate in the game.

these threads never go well because one side is always treating the other like flaming idiots.

WEll maybe there could be Vampire and Werewolf perks like claws and turning in to a bat. And maybe you can make potions that make you run faster or even fly maybe cuz there making that part of the game so they know what to do.

....................... gonna keep my Bais under the covers, I was once 13-15 too.

I hope you see your post in a few years and wonder.

Well I was just answering your questions and I think there good ideas.

Yeah i know

First, the intelligence attribute in Fantasy games are always somewhat misleading. They only tend to mean magical power, in more modern settings intelligence actually works how it should have.
Even then it's a questionable attribute. You can always make elaborate traps and solve complex puzzles with low intelligence.


And even in that thread I said that there are still variables that can be changed with alchemy, enchantments and whatnot.
Things will work differently and it will be less spreadsheety lol

Wrong. In real life, we DO have stats. They generally don't have numbers attached to them, but we DO have specific amounts of intelligence and strength and agility and endurance and so on. That's a simple, absolute and unavoidable fact. You have a particular amount of strength. The amount of strength you have is most likely different from the amount of strength someone else has. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.


Again - that's only the way that you (and others) saw it - as a middle man. That's not the way that I ever saw it. I saw attributes as defining traits of the character and the effects of those attributes - encumbrance, melee damage, stamina, etc. - as the consequences of those defining traits. To me, the traits are primary - the consequences are secondary. I would think it's self-evident that that's just the way it is, but since there are so many who insist otherwise, I'll just limit it to that - TO ME, the traits are primary and the effects are secondary. And the way they appeared TO ME is not going to change just because somebody on a forum hurls a pile of rhetoric and fallacies in my general direction.


Wrong. He'd be able to do all those things BECAUSE he's strong. His strength would be the fundamental thing and all those effects would be results of it. He would be strong. Period. The fact that he's strong - the simple existence of his strength - would RESULT IN greater ability to carry stuff and ability to hit harder and so on. Again - the trait is primary - the effects of the trait are secondary. Not the other way around.


The fact of Hale's strength DOES make a difference in Oblivion. It has specific effects on all the things I've listed - encumbrance, melee damage, etc. I don't just imagine that - it actually happens, in the game, all by itself. Yes - in Skyrim, without a strength attribute, it obviously won't make any difference whatsoever, which is exactly what I don't like about it.


This is absolutely, unequivocally, 100% wrong. It was NOT all in my head before - it was an actual number that actually existed in the game and had actual consequences. I know you've played the game, so you can't possibly be unaware of that indisputable fact.


The only difference is that NOW it's "all in my head." A thing that was formerly defined in game has been removed, forcing me to merely make believe it's there. I would prefer that it still be there.

Here's a question that I always wonder at this point in such discusssions - why the hell do you care what I prefer in the game? What difference does it make to you? What's the point in trying to "prove" that my opinion regarding what I value in a game is "wrong?" I don't like pepperoni - are you going to try to "prove" to me that I'm "wrong" to not like pepperoni too?


It's not by any stretch a "move toward realism." In the real world, people possess particular amounts of strength and intelligence and agility and so on, and the amounts of those things that they possess go some way toward determining what they can and cannot do. I can't lift a particular amount because of the perks I ticked when the perk fairy visited - I can lift a particular amount because I possess a particular amount of strength. THAT'S "realism."

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there GP :brokencomputer:

Why are you so offended by this? I'm debating so that you might become okay with the lack of attributes in Skyrim, or even approve of the change, but you seem to be thinking that I'm making some personal attack on you. The pepperoni examples is ridiculous and not even close to what is going on here. I'll refrain from commenting on anything else you said because I'm not at all trying to offend you, but it seems to be coming off that I am.

Ahem ... IQ tests

(Aradal consumes 6 elixirs of fortify intelligence for 1 hour)

Ready for your IQ test!

Ahem...IQ tests are biased and skewed towards certain knowledge. You wouldn't expect an intelligent man who ONLY studied biology to know anything about.....calculus.

No.

Thing is even with attributes, these things are abstracted. You can't just say, "My intelligence is higher hencforth I'm smarter than you" or "I have higher strenght, henceforth I can pull more weight" in real life. There are many other variables about this. What if your higher intelligence comes from lexical knowledge, how would it show that you're different than an illiterate but smart man? And with strenght how do you differentiate between somebody who's strong in the arm and somebody who's strong in the leg?

No one knows if strength is a permanent variable. It changes, goes down, up, and you can never know your maximum strength as it depends on MANY many things. So saying "I can measure it" is not a realistic fact. We do have strength, it exists, it's just too hard to measure precisely.



I can see your point here, but thing is: To the developers attributes were INDEED secondary. I can understand your point of view, and you're not wrong, but you're only right to yourself and the other people that think like you.



I can see the logic in the above. But Todd said everything Attributes did already exists in the game, which means that we do become stronger, we can still carry more (as Todd stated in an interview) and without the need of strength as a number.



I'm afraid you're mistaken as I'm absolutely 100% positive it'll make a difference, as you have no way of knowing otherwise and your statement is pure assumption.


I did make a difference, which was now moved into other sections and STILL EXISTS. So don't worry about it


I'm afraid that here you are wrong. It's like saying when you look someone in real life you have to pretend to think he's strong. It's not a make believe it's there, it is there. Only you can't actually see the strength attribute, but it's concenquences, which was what you wanted, wasn't it?


You are right about the fact that the stronger you are, the more you can probably carry. (remember, there are lots of types of strengths) But saying that a -number- showing you how strong you are is a step towards realism is a fact I can't agree with. You think you won't get stronger the more you level? or carry more? Fact is, it's all still there as concenquences and not necessarily as a one attribute that governs EVERYTHING related to it. Stronger doesn't always mean you can do everything strength has to offer, if you go into that direction you can also say that if you're stronger you can 100% be better in weapons, when you've never touched a weapon in your life. There are categories to strength, and now you do become stronger, in each of them, seperately. (which is more balanced and better, in my opinion)


MK(Omega):
As for your statement, you misread my post: I didn't say Intelligence and Wisdom are in the game, I said that the OP doesn't understand the difference between them, and now Skyrim will show him\her that it's intelligence, Wisdom and Magicka are different from each other, as Magicka is your magic power, intelligence is your amount of intellect, how vast your knowledge is. And wisdom is how smart you are regarding to life's situations and generally is different from intelligence.

And as for your second statement: Tell me you don't seriously believe that meat and cooking has no affects other than raising your health...? Do you REALLY not know Bethesda? Or do you REALLY think that little of them? You know they'll make an ok to great system regarding potions, types of food etc. And you know that everything else will have a difference as well, even a bigger difference from Oblivion, because now they are working on specializing your character, which means everything will have a bigger effect on you in order to make you special.

And by the way: All the things you've written are pure assumptions and are most likely untrue, you may view it differently, but I purge you to use your past experiences from TES games and see that they won't make stupid cooking\alchemy system, cause they are still the developers that created this amazing series, and that's a fact no one can argue with.

So...if meat isn't going to have any other effect beyond helping health and Stamina, what WILL it help since those are the only organic parts of a character in Skyrim?...what is it going to increase my block? lol


now, take your first Paragraph essentially detailing the middle man is gone right, "streamlined" even and then take the second paragraph where you believe Bethesda is going to make some "Ok" System where potions and types of foods will suddenly make a "bigger" difference than in Oblivion and ask yourself why isnt Bethesda doing that across the board? what sense is there streamlining the Character, BUT making the Alchemy system comprehensive for a simplified Character?

I am drawing from my past experiences from Bethesda, in my eyes no RPG of this type even comes close to TES but at the same time, Im not turning a cheek to the information thats presented, no they aren't the same devs, people come people go, they went from "hey lets make a game through our own vision" to "hmm we are undoubtedly sixy, lets bring in more and put in as many cliche things as possible because..you know...it never fails" no Im not saying kiss your fanbases ass, im saying don't kick them in the teeth


and No its not Pure assumptions, assumptions are saying something is fact without any evidence or reasoning. I'm actually Speculating, you know...Thinking about the information that is being provided, the Meat bit isnt Drawn out the Air, if all the character consists are H/M/S what exactly beyond effecting those three stats is meat supposed to do? don't answer that, that would be assuming. the same goes for all the Attributes appearing somewhere in Skyrim, anything beyond "they aren't in the game" would be assuming, and "Todd said" as logical as it is to believe him because he's a Dev, is hardly something to go on, if you don't see the PR in most of is statements and the ass backwards reasoning of "people only raised intelligence for Magicka, so we took out Intelligence and left Magicka" as the only solution for 5 years of developement, then soryy, im not sure what to say, they could have made it effect something else, actually matter in game, they did it in FO3 no?


Oh well :shrug:


"post below"


where in my Post did I say Skyrim will be a Godawful game because attributes aren't in? Im not cross that Attributes aren't in so much as I am of the ridiculous reasoning for it being out.

How about we all play the game before we begin to bash it... The system could actually be quiet satisfying and due to one's interpretation of a measley, shallow interview, it is already being scolded.

Agreed. Besides, every other ES staple is still in Skyrim; I'm referring to character customization, skills, open-world, side quests, and the lore (of course).

I made no claim at all regarding the ease or lack thereof of accurately measuring such a thing. I merely countered the assertion that the "attribute" does not exist in reality by pointing out that it does in fact exist. It does, in fact, exist.


"Strength" cannot make a difference in Skyrim, since it won't exist in the game. The things that were formerly defined in part by the strength attribute will apparently still exist, but that wasn't what I was addressing. The attribute of strength will not and cannot make a difference in the game for the quite simple reason that it won't even exist. That is precisely and entirely what I stated, and it's undeniably true.


Right, but axiomatically "consequences" don't exist in a vaccuum. They are.... consequences. They exist only because the thing of which they are consequences exists. While it's certainly true that one's perception of an "attribute" comes from the observation of its consequences, the consequences are not identical to the attribute. That a thing is perceived by its consequences does not make it identical to or indistinguishable from its consequences.


All I said was that a number to represent strength is more realistic than having strength represented by which boxes I tick when the perk fairy visits. I stand by that.

Think about it like this: Consequences are the way to see how much strength you have, they are in fact the measuring method rather than the number itself. Without consequences there's no variable. And bethesda showed us just that, by removing strength they moved its consequences so that we may have a deeper and more detailed (with more thinking involved) character development. They merely removed the variable and kept the consequences, there is in fact no difference other than a more detailed way of developing your character.


Well, I think strength, in Skyrim (like others explained), is increased by skills, that is mere speculation but like when you use a short sword a lot, you're bound to improve in one handed weapons (NOTE, not just for you: let's not argue about the fact that if you're good with a sword you won't be good with a mace, because in real life, and I know that because I'm studying martial arts most of my life, it's all about the weight of the weapon and its balance, if you're good with a one handed sword, you'll probably be good with a mace that's about the same weight as the sword. The drastic difference exists between light weapons and heavy weapons, like a war axe and a stave, etc.)

MK(Omega):
We don't have enough info to give you an answer to that question, but you don't have enough information to make that speculation, if I try hard enough I can give you examples as to what potions may raise this time around:
Potion of speed: increases the rate of your attack speed and you move faster (just because athletic's gone, doesn't mean character movement can't be increased due to magic, scrolls, potions etc.)
Fatigue boosts which gives you a better regeneration rate of stamina, may be granted from different types of FOOD.
items/potions/foods that increase the rate your magicka regenerates.
A potion/food that let's you carry more.
A buff that increases the damage you're dealing.

Not that hard to think about it, see? I'm not saying these will be in the game as they won't advertise such things any time soon or maybe ever, but you can see it's possible to come up with hundreds of effects for foods and potions to make, just think a little and you'll find them. You don't have to have attributes to increase all the things they govern, just so you'd know.

And sure people come and people go within the company, but don't tell me that you actually know all the people that left the company and because of them the game won't be the same. If beth became a company for, and I quote you: "hmm we are undoubtedly sixy, lets bring in more and put in as many cliche things as possible because..you know...it never fails" then they wouldn't have made this game to have so many amazing details, and they wouldn't have tried to bring back the Morrowind feeling, or they wouldn't even think about creating a whole language, they could always make an ACTUAL cliche game, and earn money for it. All the changes they've made ONLY tell us that they have thought about it, if they kept it the same and learn nothing from Oblivion, then I would agree. But they changed the system, rewrote the whole engine and put A LOT of work during 5 years of development, so your statement has absolutely 100% no grounds at all and it fails in the reality test.

the point from a role play stance is not whethor or not you compare it to npc's but that you are comparing it to your other charcter. I have a lot of role play characters. and yeah I could just in my head say, this character is smart... but thats lame. and how do I apply that to my other characters? this character is slightly smarter than the last, how do I keep track of that in my head when I have 20 + characers. I guess I would have to start keeping a note pad next to my controller. keep track like this: new character -3 degrees of separation to my middle smart character....

oh wait, there was some thing that did that for me. it was called attributes. having a solid defined number makes it so that I don't have to memorize every detail of my role playing character other wise it gets mixed up and I am not having fun role playing. I can see how non role players just see it as an equivilant to barbies dream house but one isn't based on several factors while the other is. the stats help me play the game more and keep track of fewer things when role playing.

you can still roleplay the same way you where never able to look at the npc's stats anyways. As you said the smater you get the more magika you will have so just assume that since you have a lot of magika you are smart

Of course its possible to come up with Hundreds of effects and possibilities, but thats all they are, Possibilities I had the same feeling about Oblivion for alot of things, now I'm only working with whats been stated, and in your example why make potions to augment the character temporarily when Attributes do that just fine?

why actually yes I can detail a significant portion of people who have come and gone from Bethesda, not all of course but its not like this is a secret, and even that doesn't change the fact that Bethesda -is not- the same bethesda from years ago, because just as people come and go, people change, concepts change, games change thats easy to see from Daggerfall to Oblivion, do I want them to do exactly like prior games? no, but I do expect them to improve upon the -good- old games brought to the table, people say Skyrim will be Skyrim, but Skyrim would not be Skyrim if Oblivion wanst Oblivion and morrowind Wasnt Morrowind Ad Arena, 5 years isnt left completely to the Engine, you think every soul was working on Dragons for 2 years? errm no Skyrim was the first time they probably took a hard look at Attributes from 4 games running and thought erp lets get rid of them?

So you can differentiate between 2 characters, one with 50 intelligence other with 55 with the help of attributes? How?

And again, what stops you to play your idiot character as the smart one, even with attribute...

To respond to the title of this thread: No, raising your Intelligence did not make you more intelligent because it's reflected nowhere in the game. No high-int only dialogue options, no automatic riddle-solving, no contests of skill. Just a single insignificant NPC comment. All Intelligence did was increase your Magicka and give you slight bonuses on Alchemy, but nowhere near as big as high-quality equipment. If being "smarter" doesn't actually do anything to represent that, then no, it's not all that significant.