Smithing is Illogical

Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:48 am

Does it say that you need iron ore and corundum to smelt steel, or does it only say that iron ore and corundum are needed for making steel equipment? Joseph Volney Lewis, in Corundum and the Basic Magnesian Rocks of Western North Carolina, says that corundum is used for cutting and polishing metal, and that it is "extensively used" in the steel industry (51).


i believe you need iron, corondum and steel ingots to make steel equipment. so this is prob correct.

tbh i couldnt care less about this, if i wanted realism i'd go outside
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scorpion972
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:24 pm

Maybe armors are made of stainless steel, I mean who wants to rust out there in the colds. ;)

Stainless Steel is made of Iron and 11% chromium, corundum ore contains chromium, there you go.
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Kaylee Campbell
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:54 am

Weeell. I'm not a metallurgist and I don't really pay attention to the requirements for making anything in the game. Honestly though, you do have to consider that glass is stronger than Elven armor in this game. I'm not exactly sure they are going for realism. At all.


For gods sake. The glass they use for weapons and armor =/= regular window glass. Its volcanic glass, which is naturally very sharp and very hard, mixed with metals to give it strength. So, while they may not be going for realism overall, in this particular aspect, yes they are.

EDIT: And to everyone saying "Coal + Iron doesn't make steel, go back to runescape", steel is an alloy comprised of iron, carbon and trace amounts of some other minerals. Coal is primarily carbon, with some other minerals. Because coal would have been the easiest way to attain large amounts of carbon in medieval/TES times, they would probably have used it to forge steel.
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FLYBOYLEAK
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:28 pm

i believe you need iron, corondum and steel ingots to make steel equipment. so this is prob correct.

tbh i couldnt care less about this, if i wanted realism i'd go outside



Nah, go to the smelter in Whiterun, just to the right of where you enter/fast travel. That's where you make ingots. And it says to make a steel ingot, you need corundum ore and iron ore. You never use ore to make equipment, only ingots, leather and leather strips.
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Matt Terry
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:02 pm

Does it say that you need iron ore and corundum to smelt steel, or does it only say that iron ore and corundum are needed for making steel equipment? Joseph Volney Lewis, in Corundum and the Basic Magnesian Rocks of Western North Carolina, says that corundum is used for cutting and polishing metal, and that it is "extensively used" in the steel industry (51).


AH ok! Thanks. I looked up corundum, and it said that when it wasn't being sold as rubies and sapphires, that it was used mainly as an abrasive material. Also mentioned that it was very hard. Harder than mosts (or maybe all), metals. The article i read did not say explicitly that it was used to cut metals...but that would make sense. It also said that there could be trace amounts of Vanadium and Chromium in the ore. Which are used to smelt various specific kinds of steel.

And for all of you that, I knew, would start griping about "it's a MAGIC game". As I said in the first post. The game is based in reality, with only a few things changed for "magic". Smelting fictional ore, ok. Smelting real ore, get it right. That's how I feel. If you're willing to let them slide on that, that's cool. It's not like the game svcks because of it.

But it's ANNOYING to me right now, that I can't smelt an alloy using ingots. That's just stupid.
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Hilm Music
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:20 pm

Or that the player character sheathes a 2-handed longsword over their shoulder, despite the fact that it's anatomically impossible to draw such a sword from that position?

It's impossible to draw in the way they suggest, but it's feasible for it to be carried that way if it were to have a strap of some kind - that much in game can be shrugged off as cutting out a lengthy animation.

The thing I find annoying is the fact that you're unable to use a regular hand and a half-sized longsword with a two handed grip..
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Lillian Cawfield
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:55 am

For gods sake. The glass they use for weapons and armor =/= regular window glass. Its volcanic glass, which is naturally very sharp and very hard, mixed with metals to give it strength. So, while they may not be going for realism overall, in this particular aspect, yes they are.

EDIT: And to everyone saying "Coal + Iron doesn't make steel, go back to runescape", steel is an alloy comprised of iron, carbon and trace amounts of some other minerals. Coal is primarily carbon, with some other minerals. Because coal would have been the easiest way to attain large amounts of carbon in medieval/TES times, they would probably have used it to forge steel.


Lol I very much doubt volcanic glass could be made in a regular forge, as well as being mixed with metals.

And no, you don't add carbon to iron to make steel, you remove it. The only use for coal in this process is to heat the metal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel#Steel_production
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celebrity
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:19 am

I'm surprised nobody is complaining about how Tamrielic smiths managed to get quicksilver (mercury) in an ingot form.

And subsequently use it for weapons and armor.

Much of Skyrim's smithing is odd. Just file it under "magicks be here" and keep your smile on.
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Blackdrak
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:21 am

Spock is illogical!!!
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Juliet
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:24 am

Um... so?

You know this in't exactly the most logical game in the world.

That doesn't mean it should be left that way.
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Emily abigail Villarreal
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:46 am

BTW the OP is correct, Iron + Coal = Steel...

BEHOLD!!!!

http://www.wowwiki.com/Steel_Bar

... o wait...
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An Lor
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:52 pm

The logic of the game annoys me sometimes. First, it said I needed Iron Ore and Corundum or to smelt Steel. Everyone alive knows you need iron ore and coal to smelt steel. Corundum (rubies and sapphires) is aluminum oxide. Maybe you could smelt it to some beneficial result, but it doesn't make steel.

Now it's telling me I can't make alloys of any kind with ingots. Only ore. I have iron ingots, and charcoal (hell I have corundum ingots for that matter), why can't I smelt steel with that? Ingots are even EASIER than ore to smelt. I mean you don't have to be a metallurgist to know that. It's just common sense.

And before someone goes prattling on about how it's stupid to look for real-life logic in a game about magic, the game is based/on in real-life. Everything about the game except the races and the magic is based in real life. And not being able to smelt ingots is stupid.

I can't see how it overbalances the game somehow.


Sorry if I interpreted this wrong… What type of things do you want to make? Steel armors, weapons, boots? The charcoal is never used for smiting in the game. Ore is smelted into Ingots that will be used for the making of the armors and weapons. Some of the Ingots need 2 Ore pieces to make 1 Ingot.

You will need different types of Ingots for different types of armors in the game and the higher your smiting level/perk, more types of armors/weapons will be unlocked. I guess you know this already. You also use the Ingots for improving weapons and armors on the Workbench and Grinding stone.

AND just to clarify I don’t know anything about smiting in general so don’t judge so harshly. :)
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Elle H
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:43 am

Riddle me this smarty pants!

How, pray tell, do we make daedric pieces IRL???!?


You can't. But you can make steel in real life.

When alluding to real things, people or events, then being correct makes the fantasy all the better.

A little bit of salt in your brownies makes all that sugar taste much better. (read the ingredients, there's salt.)

The game is mostly real with a tiny bit of fiction to make the fantasy better. There are no daedric weapons. But there are weapons. That there are weapons is real, what the weapons are made of is not, in the cast of ebony weapons or daedric weapons.

Now...the game explained how "glass" armor and weapons work. I'm cool with it. I'm cool with Ebony, even though in real life it is wood...not ore. "Ebony" is a type of wood.

But this is all philosophical crap. What really pissed me off is that I wanted to make some steel ingots and I didn't have any corundum ore. And the idea that I needed corundum ore to make the steel ingot, made it even more irritating. And Then I got over it 2 minutes later.
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Lori Joe
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:31 am

if i wanted realism i'd go outside


Exactly, games are all about suspension of reality. If I were, for example, riding a horse in the real world, I wouldn't expect a lone wolf to start viciously attacking me, or a fox to happily run alongside me - they'd both leg it. But I let that slide.

Material 2 > Material 1, therefore Material 2 requires more, and more rare, ingredients. And for me, that is enough.
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Lucy
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:04 pm

Complaining that smithing doesn't work exactly like real life, yet no problem with dragons in the game.
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Scott
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:19 am

Everything about the game except the races and the magic is based in real life.


I wish you had started with that statement. I would have stopped right there and been spared the rest of the post.

:sadvaultboy:
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Lucy
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:39 pm

"Everyone alive knows you need iron ore and coal to smelt steel".

how many out there are then undead like me?
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liz barnes
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:17 am

BECOZ MAGIC.

HA HA HA HA HA!!!
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Campbell
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:42 pm

The logic of the game annoys me sometimes. First, it said I needed Iron Ore and Corundum or to smelt Steel. Everyone alive knows you need iron ore and coal to smelt steel. Corundum (rubies and sapphires) is aluminum oxide. Maybe you could smelt it to some beneficial result, but it doesn't make steel.

Now it's telling me I can't make alloys of any kind with ingots. Only ore. I have iron ingots, and charcoal (hell I have corundum ingots for that matter), why can't I smelt steel with that? Ingots are even EASIER than ore to smelt. I mean you don't have to be a metallurgist to know that. It's just common sense.

And before someone goes prattling on about how it's stupid to look for real-life logic in a game about magic, the game is based/on in real-life. Everything about the game except the races and the magic is based in real life. And not being able to smelt ingots is stupid.

I can't see how it overbalances the game somehow.

is it logical to apply real world concepts to a fantasy world game? spock says no. LOL couldn't resist.
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Sara Johanna Scenariste
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:34 pm

Yes...Everybody alive knows you make steel with iron and...coal...

Steel is just Iron with a controlled level of carbon and other alloys.

"Iron" is about 70% iron, 25% carbon, and 5% junk.

I'm guessing they use Corundum as an alloy to make the steel more corrosion-resistant and shiny. They also mention it makes it much stronger.

And people really need to learn the meaning of "Verisimilitude" - Suspension of disbelief.

However, I roll with the "Steel" used in the game, because I (apparently) know more about steel than the OP.

There are many kinds of steel. Apparently, the type used in making weapons and armor in Skyrim is an Iron/Corundum alloy, giving it the tensile strength, hardness, strength, corrosion-resistance, and elasticity needed to kill dragons. Why Corundum? Because that's the alloy needed to give the Iron the desired qualities. Non-Corundum based steel apparently needs repairs after every fight, if the previous games are anything to go by. If the Smiths in Cyrodiil knew to use Corundum and Iron mixed while still ores, many repair hammers could have been saved.
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Kahli St Dennis
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:58 am

Iron + Coal = Steel?????

What the hell have you been smoking son? go back to runescape.


Uh, actually yes. Iron + charcoal = steel.
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Christine
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:48 am

Maybe armors are made of stainless steel, I mean who wants to rust out there in the colds. ;)

Stainless Steel is made of Iron and 11% chromium, corundum ore contains chromium, there you go.

Thank you very much!

Keep in mind: it's not corundum used to make steel ingots - it's corundum ore.

Chemistry/Metallurgy in Tamriel isn't very advanced: The smith's don't know the metallic elements they need - they work with the elemental "bundles" found in ores. (Kind of like building decks with Booster packs in CCGs instead of buying Single cards)

Mixing corundum ore with iron ore in the smelter makes a better sword/armor-grade steel, likely because of the corrosion-resistant Chromium, and hardness of Corundum (Don't want a blade that can't scratch dragon hide!)

Orichalium is just a different form of Iron Ore with other metals that lead to an even stronger type of Steel than chromium(corundum) steel, that picks up a green tinge from its trace elements.

Ebony isn't steel at all: It's glass. Very strong, resilient glass: It has to be heated and softened before it can be worked with: otherwise, it just shatters. Of course, the force required to shatter it requires either persistance (caused by ineptly trying to repair it) or ridiculous impact.

It also helps to read the book on the subject: They explicitly mention that Corundum is added to the ores to strengthen the "Steel".
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Christine Pane
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:28 am

I was happy that steel doesnt made from "Steel ore", at least.
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I love YOu
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:27 am

I'm surprised that the OP is tweaking out about this, instead of the concept of Glass armor and weapons.
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Kelly Osbourne Kelly
 
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Post » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:17 am

I know right? Also everyone knows that demon hearts aren't harder than steel. WTF is up with that??

...

http://i44.tinypic.com/t4ziok.jpg
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Juan Suarez
 
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