http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaKm2eWHENY

When people complain that the game is too easy on Master, they are usually accused of exploiting the synergy between smithing, enchanting and alchemy, and/or powerleveling these things way earlier than they should. I wanted to find out if smithing alone made the game too easy, without powerleveling (just smithing when I come back to town to sell things, no waiting, no circuits of the province buying up all the iron ore).

It's certainly not as absurd as combining all the crafting skills, but I felt it made the game too easy nonetheless. However other people may feel it is totally fine. The video is just some examples, though of course my personal opinion shows through in the comments.

While there are no levels or perks in enchanting or alchemy, I did put enchants on my gear, which are pretty bad due to lvl 25 enchanting (from disenchanting the necessary equips) with no perks. I did this because my standard is "what would a normal person do during the course of normal gameplay" and I decided that most normal people wouldn't just leave their gear blank. You can actually find much better gear tbh, 30-35% two-hand damage gloves for example I have found a few pairs of. The ring and amulet are middle of the road found items.

I also use healing magic. I have a personal peeve against healing potions, I feel they're cheap, so I don't use them, but I have to get HP back somehow

Smithing only hits crazy levels late. A lot of this is because the way armor is done, where there are no diminishing returns on the amount of mitigation armor gives. So your effective HP increases exponentially. Going from 0% armor to 10% armor increases your effective HP by about 10%. Going from 70% armor to 80% armor increases your effective HP by a whopping 50%. But both require the same amount of armor. So when you're finally hitting that last 100 armor towards the cap it is beefing you up way more than the first 100 armor did.

Wow that fell off the first page fast.

1Handed,Smithing,Enchanting,Shield,and Stealth is overpowered, other specs are fine

Conjuration is overpowered for warriors but fine for mages.

Simple as that.

Level 46 on master and I can barely take an elder/ancient dragon by myself and I did alchemy enchanting and smithing.

I didn't enchant my weapons, though. They have a base damage of 200 so I am not 1 hitting everything.

I wanted to get a ridiculous armor rating (2-3K) and just have an average weapon (1hitting everything isn't fun) so that my engagements could be more drawn out, but the armor cap stopped that

Quite the list of forbidden fruit




Hrm that seems odd, are you wearing the right kind of elemental resist vs the dragons? With that their breath shouldn't hurt very much at all, and you should be at armor cap so their bite isn't going to be much of a problem if you're killing them fast enough. Power attacks with dual 200 damage 1handers should chew through stuff.

Here is a solution:

Don't exploit Smithing by making Iron Daggers. In fact the only Iron Dagger I've made was at the beginning of the game when you first meet Alvor. I have 50 smithing at level 15. I have been consistently smithing throughout the game. Buying ore to make ingots and using those to beef up the armor of myself and my companion. I've made weapons to enchant and sell and I sell weapons/armor for money that I make with my smithing.

I roleplay and my smithing skill feels balanced. I don't have the best gear in the world, although my custom made Dwarven sword (Dragon's Breath, it's enchanted with fire damage) does rip through the Draughr in 3-4 hits (the regular ones) even on Master difficulty.

Personally I would like Smithing more if it had diminishing returns, say the first time you make an item you get 100% of the xp worth and then the amount you get drops the more of that item you make. The alternative of course is that the weaker gears provide less and less experience the higher your smithing skill gets. Though personally I would prefer the first option because if you're not making leather armor very often as a daedric smith then you would probably have a lot to learn about making leather armor.

Yeah, this has not been discussed before. In fact three threads that are in intense debates about this very subject is what knocked this down the pipe.

It is an well hashed over topic, but I wanted to showcase some actual gameplay as opposed to making claims in threads without backing anything up

Your video actually highlights that daedric weapons are too good, rather than the blacksmithing skill itself.

Even if they slow down blacksmithing skill leveling to the same rate as alchemy, eventually people will still reach 100 blacksmithing.

And even without blacksmithing, people can also find daedric gear once they are high level enough. Though you could argue that they will only appear later than blacksmithing allows.

So the question to ask is, is it fair that you can steamroll giants and mammoths with daedric weapons?

If yes, then working as intended.
If no, then we can try to reduce the damage output. There are a few ways.

One is to nerf the blacksmithing improvements across the board.
Another is to reduce the damage of weapons across the board, by nerfing the damage perk from the first tier of either one-handed or two-handed skills. Decrease it from 20/40/60/80/100% extra damage to 20/2530/35/40% extra damage.
Yet another way is to tweak the perks. Put the damage perk of one-handed/two-handed skills deep in their tree rather than being the first. This forces people to specialize deep in order to be powerful.

Let me get this clear.

You achieve the ultimate in mortal ability in Smithing.

You have transcended an ability to fight in Heavy Armour which is unsurpassable.

Your one-handed skill makes you the greatest sword fighter in the world, and will ever see.

If anybody described a hero like this to me, and they weren't ploughing through hordes of enemies.. even on high difficulty I would wonder why the world was so inbalanced, that the perfect warrior in the perfect armour is getting beat up.

Maybe it is a little easy to achieve, but it doesn't happen naturally until a point where you'd normally be towards end game, and beating the game isn't the point and if you can't comprehend this, you're playing the wrong game. TES has always been designed to allow you to do this. With fewer skills, I suspect the abuses were simply a little easier to spot. At least they weren't has bad as the 1 million intelligence buffs in Morrowind

This is a good question.

I think even on Master there should be a full gamut of enemy difficulties, from easy to super hard. But currently it only goes from easy to semi-hard. So an alternate solution to nerfing player damage is buffing certain enemies so there is a wider variation of difficulty, and Master includes some real challenges.



I guess what I'm saying is, I would like it if they didn't design the game to allow you to do this on the highest difficulty. It's up to the devs in the end, but I might as well ask for what I want.

how is smithing "cheap" or "overpowered" when you have enough money and you want cool armor, why not? i think invisibility and sneak is overpowered i use sneak with dual daggers(mehrunez razor and a glass dagger)and i turn invisible with the shadowcloak of nocturnal power and i can 1 hit dragons while sneaking lmao i play on Adept because i've only played oblivion and skyrim.(also i tried it on harder difficulties and wasn't having any fun) still its all your own opinion so if you don't like smithing don't use it.

Its all how you want to play really!
If I wanted to get to the top level in smithing then I would expect my weapons to kick most enemies asses and my armour to withstand a lot of damage, no biggie?

I agree smithing is too powerful, upgrading the armour / damage of an item by 100% or more without abusing crafting synergy is too much (especially when you then get combat perks).
Improving the base of an item by 40 is too good even for legendary status, moreso when the best base armour value is deadric armour at ~49 (and thats the only piece of the deadric set that actually gives more armour than the upgrade). This alone trivialises the armour cap, something that shouldn't be so easy to do. Weapons also become significantly harder hitting (deadric mace base of 16 yet can be improved by 20 without abuse).
The best way I could see of combatting this would be to reduce the upgrade bonuses, but equally I'm not sure it should be done as there are people who enjoy this aspect of the game and fixing this would still leave other 'god mode' options untouched (you would just see less whining on this and more on others). In the end TES has always been about choice and there has always been a choice to exploit the mechanics of the game to become a god (and in Morrowind it was just as easy), the challenge has always been what you make of it, for many that will mean waiting for the creation kit.

Thats fair and reasonable. In my opinion the world is there for you to form your own challenges. Its a great game for imposing a rule set and trying to pull off something difficult.

I completed Oblivions Main Quest without killing a single person or animal.. I may have hurt a lot of people to low hit points, but I never landed a killing blow.. that was a great challenge, and was a challenge to figure out inventive ways for monsters to commit suicide, creating monster trains to chase me so I could dominate them for specific enemies, and running .. fast. Mankor Cameron was tremendously tough... the last "level" of the quest.. well it involved running and I got really good at that.

Skyrims challenge isn't about working out the most effective combination, but rather challenging the game without using mastery of disciplines.

Once I have eroded all the caverns, and seen most of the game after my first two walkthroughs, I will come back and I have a couple of challenges planned.

The Sidekick saga (No killing of my companion, I'm the companion to a hero, not the other way around, haven't decided which companion to go for)
Unarmed Monk, Restoration, no Conjuration/Destruction

I've a few other ideas kicking around, but my point is that this is the "challenge", to challenge yourself to do something different. Just beat the game on master is pretty unimaginative.

I guess you missed the part where OP said he's playing on Master difficulty. If a game makes you feel like a god on hardest difficulty, then there's clearly an issue with balance. Your reasoning works for Normal difficulty, and even then only if you look at it from roleplaying perspective. Unless you're one of the people who like to cruise through games by mindlessly pressing one button (one that says 'I win'), in which case I don't know why you're not just watching movies instead, level of interaction is about the same.

God-like music choice. One of my favorite songs.

I play on master difficulty, and it actually isn't that easy if you don't get better armor than you should with your level. armor cap is on 567, and you can reach that without smithing with a daedric armor. Even with the armor cap, some casters can two-shot me, and some archers can three-shot me. The problem for me is that, while a Dwemer master centurion can kill me in 3 seconds if he hits me, It's absurdly easy to avoid all Its damage.

EDIT.: you shouldn't be wearing full daedric armor and weapons at level 36, I was wearing dwemer by then. Level a bit more, you'll realise that you can't level combat skills past 100 (level 50 or so), but enemies keep getting stronger. Ancient dragons will kill you if you take a full breath without enchants.

If the game makes you feel like a god by having several skills at godlike abilities, then yes you should feel like a god. Read my post above, the challenge is not in beating the game on Master.

There is more than one type of game in the world, and not all games are about beating the game on the hardest difficulty. This is one of them. Sorry its not your sort of game, but those that 'get' it, are having a whale of a time.

Like I said before, if you read the thread, TES has always been like this, always. If the game was designed to challenge a player to beat the game, it would degrade the game into an action adventure which enforces players to follow "damage per second" routes, and I don't think Beth have ever intended this to be the case.

I dont find stealth overpowered but It sure can be with enchanting or enchanted gear.
Whats overpowered with stealth is muffled boots. The AL just cant detect you.

Im at only 65 stealth with my archer, but I dont do backstabs.

1h+shield is not overpowered. Dual wield is alot better.
None of the melee abilities are overpowered if done raw.

Its just enchanting thats truly overpowered. Smithing by itself is not too bad, just dont push for 100 and leave ebony and daedric weapons.
You want to smith, go left and max at glass weapons, at 70, thats ok.

Smithing is extreme together with enchanting and alchemy. Just as enchanting can reach extremes combined with alchemy.

None of the skills itself are too good, they are very well balanced. They are just not balanced in synergy with secondary professions.

Stay clear of them and you can play what you want and it wont be overpowered. Instead you will have a nice challenge.

I agree, but I would venture that those that 'get' it, would probably be just as happy with novice as they are in it for the experience and not the challenge

Two different camps of people, nobody has any right to say one group or the other is 'doing it wrong'.

Personally I am quite happy, I do think there is a challenge a bit lacking but that's alright, I can get over that. I can still respect the people are want more of a challenge though. I have a problem with anyone who insists that people playing the game the way they want are 'doing it wrong' however. Currently the balance threads are bringing a great number of 'you're doing it wrong' types out when people ask for it to be harder.

I can't fathom why the folks not interested in the difficulty or challenge give two hoots about those wanting it to be harder at the top difficulty.

Oh my bad. I thought it was reasonable to expect the game to have both roleplaying elements and a difficulty curve assisted by difficulty levels (!) to make the player feel challenged (on appropriate difficulty, in this case Master) and give him incentive to progress and improve his character.

I hit 100 Smithing with Lvl 45 and I only made Iron Daggers at the end (level 95-100) because I finally wanted to give Mjoll Dragonplate Armor. Up until then I had only used my hunted (and stolen) pelts and self mined iron ore which I transmuted to gold.

Up until now I don't really think it's unbalanced since my legendary (up until now unenchanted) glass bow does need some time to kill an elder or ancient dragon and if I don't get cover or Mjoll to tank the damage I'm pretty much a goner. Oh and I don't use alchemy and enchanted exploit although I do have both skills leveled and put some perks there, I use the alchemy and smithing gear I found over the cause of the game, but I won't enchant it myself.



Actually I like that idea. Let's see what happens when the CK comes out and someone gets their hands on the script.

Im using smithing on my 2nd character too. My first had 100 and enchanting lalala.

But I have 70 smithing and stopped there.
I ONLY leveled smithing to 70 for glass weapons, once I could aqquire glass weapons myself.
And with 70 AND the perk for glass weapons, I can improve the damage quite some, but not too much. I feel its fine.

I did not want to take this, I wanted 60 for the magical perk and just add like 15% damage, but now, i can add around 30%.
Im stopping there.
Adding 100% is redicilous imo. I dont want it.

I was almost forced to do this though since the game was becoming redicilously hard for me even on Adept.
With my first character I was running through Master pressing 1 button.

Now with my bosmer archer I am playing 75% on adept, trying expert sometimes. And it feels as If Im playing Skyrim version of Dark Souls.
Yes, My level is high, 35, due to pickpocketing and a mix of skills I almost dont use. i have 50 in one handed and 40 in block but I almost never use it, I actually paid to have them trained up for the few times I might use it.
My main weapon skill is bow, at 65 only. And I can tell you, my damage at lvl 35 sux balls.
On a bandit boss, with a sneak attack with 3 times damage bonus AND a crit, I will take off around 40% health. On Adept.
And I LOVE it.
Its so challenging.
And only due to one or two things: Completely not using Enchanting. Even pickup gear that have pure damage enchants on them, I sell it.
Smithing, I just took it up but didnt have it at all earlier. My damage went up nicely but I honestly was in need of it. Im not going further, and I wont be able to upgrade ebony or daedric very good, IF I ever find one.

Im playing a game where I am limiting myself on purpose, to get a challenge. And the ONLY limit required is actually to forego enchanting skill mainly, and not maxing smithing.
Alchemy I dont have but feel free to use it to make health and mana potions. But once you start to make smithing and enchanting pots and damage potions, you are disturbing the balance.

My experience so far though: The game is made for you to have 1 secondary skill at, atleast mediocre skill.
But leaving it at mediocre makes the game rather challenging, and also incredibly fun.
Combat for me now is very involving.
I have had fights vs 3 normal bandits, or medium rare ones, that have taken up to 10 minutes, cause Im kiting, hiding. They can almost one shoot me.
And I do have an upgraded thiefs guild leather armor and I do have 200 hp, at lvl 35. But enemies hits hard even on Adept.

My experience from before when I steam rolled Master was that there hardly was a difference between expert and master, while the difference between Adept and Expert is extremly large.
Again, I dont have melee, I dont have magic damage. I do have 50 one handed yes and I have an unenchanted, semi smithed glass dagger and a glass shield.
Other then that I mainly rely on my bow. And since bows dont fire very fast, that alone is why fights takes so long time.
Soon I can get the perk for 30-35% faster firing rate with bows and that will help me alot.

Sneak: It might be overpowered at 95+ in sneak AND muffled boots.
But I have 65 in sneak at the moment, I do have the 50% noise reduction perk in Light armor. And Im spotted so fast its redicilous at times.
As soon as I fire an arrow, they see me. On multiple enemies, I will get in one sneak shot, maybe two with luck, then I need to run and kite or soak it up.

I die, alot.

Anyway, the game allows you to be a god if you want. All you need is enchanting coupled with smithing for melee, and enchanting for mages.

Stay clear of enchanting and not going above 60-70 smithing, and no alchemy, and the game is very well balanced for a very challenging adept playthrough.
I am having so much fun after I rerolled i cant describe it.
Every fight requires a sence of tactics if more then 2 enemies.
Only normal Wofls I can 1 shoot. The rest requires more.
Even the lowest bandit I cant kill with a 3*sneak damage shot. he is almost down though.

This would much easier if there were just 2 extremes sadly there are those inbetween.
The game was made for the majority. Those playing at either end of the scale are not in that group. If at the top end wanting more challenge the construction kit (hopefully) will be out soonish and will then appease those begging for a more extreme playstyle.

Perhaps I don't have a right to say that anybody is doing it wrong, and I don't like doing so, but bearing in mind this is completely normal for an Elder Scrolls game, and has always been the case.. I think theres a certain reasonable cause to state that it has been approached with the wrong perspective, based on the history of the series.
If I wanted to defect from the british military to the terrorists in a COD game, I doubt anybody would have any issue telling me I was approaching the game wrong either based on the history of that series. I can count the number of single player RPG's that were balanced on one han.. finger.

I personally wouldn't care if there was a "Powergamer" difficulty, I would love it even more if they called it that. But by doing so, my concern is that the concession that the game has a difficulty designed for those who care only for the combat challenge, its starts moving the focus of the game away from the things that so many of us love.
We've already lost so many non-combat skills, by adjusting the game for a non-roleplaying gamers, you shift that focus a little more. Its a slippery slope that leads to a place that kills the game we love. Its not the suggestion I object to, its the game focus. Its very selfish of me, but I do love this series, and I love its quirkyness, and inbalances which give the world so much character. I will fight to preserve the game I love, and defend it against action/adventure.

To exaggerate my argument for clarity sake, its a short ride from Powergamer Difficulty, to Call of Duty: Fantasy Warfare.