I hate to burst onto a forum and just start suggesting things, but I've felt the mechanical elements of the Elder Scrolls series lacked a specific something.

I've been playing since late Morrowind and I love making characters in ES. I like to try out concepts and see how they work. While I can't say I've made everything (might be impossible to do so) I think I've covered the bases pretty well. I rarely play a pure role (pure Combat or Magic or Stealth) because skill use in other skill groups helps enhance your main focus. (magic enhancing Combat, stealth enhancing Combat, Magic enhancing Stealth. I prefer Combat/Magic myself)

Stealth enhancing Magic tends to be lacking in this regard and as the topic title suggests, I'm referring to being able to sneak attack with spells. True, we can be stealthy mages, but the concept doesn't hold up very well in combat compared to sticking a blade in someone's back or an arrow between the eyes from ten paces away. It seems to me that we should be able to do the same thing with Magic, Destruction in particular. Who's to say we can't slide up to a lack-witted marauder, put a finger against his spleen and proceed to fry him with 10,000 volts? He would never know what hit him. Can't a fireball, lobbed from a safe distance, take a group unawares, reducing them to so much pencil lead?

As far as I've been able to reason by myself, implementing this within Skyrim would not unbalance the system. (using Oblivion as a guide) While spells have a higher damage output than weapons, they do come with a cost to magika and are generally slower than attacking with weapons. Knowing how and when to use spells is key and sneak attacking with them can greatly enhance them.

In conclusion and tl;dr: Sneak attacking with spells is cool. It's also, I believe, an interesting concept to play a character who never touches a weapon. Well, if you're still reading, thank you for sticking with me this far. Skyrim looks like an awesome game so far and I'm very pleased with what Bethesda promises with it. All I can say is that it's going to be a VERY long wait until November rolls around.

I like this idea. :thumbsup:

Well, elementall attacks seems to engulf all the body and health drain, absorb and damage seems to extract life force. It didn't look like effects that could benefict of targeting an especific body zone thanks to the target being unaware.

How would you NOT notice someone summoning a huge fireball and hurling it at you from across the room?

Doesn't really make sense, imo.

With a dagger or other melee weapon, you can sneak up and really do some damage by stabbing someone or slitting their throat, or if you get the drop on someone with your bow, by loosing a shaft at his head or heart.

With fireballs, you can sneak up and... set their robes on fire? It just doesn't seem like sneaking up behind someone should automatically mean your fireball will critically hit as if it was a melee weapon or a an arrow from a bow.

However, you could, say, sneak up on someone and use a much more powerful spell that requires you to touch your target, eh? Now THAT makes sense.

They come up from behind..... :flamethrower:

Meh. Sneak-attack bonus is usually about the idea of stealthy characters using weak weapons thus needing the extra damage (and allowing sneak attacks with longswords sort of broke that, but...) and spells can easily be some of the most insanely powerful effects in the game, unless they remove all the "Weakness to..." spell effects that can stack.

So basically, if we're going to allow for damage-boosting sneak attacks with spells we should also allow for sneak attacks with Daedric warhammers, right?

Ouch. Yeah, I didn't really think so either. :shrug:

Nah, bad idea. You'll enhance your stealth with magic plenty already. It would be like casting a magic fireball with a longsword, just, weird...

"Dad, it's an Ayleid ruin with headless zombies everywhere, why aren't you sneaking?" " I'll show you how to sneak, boy." [ casts light 60' on self, shock 100' foot on target. ] " Now that's what I call sneaking."

No way, magic is overpowered enough as it is.

You can't brace yourself for an incoming magical attack, there's no impact so to speak, so a magic sneak attack doesn't make a lick of sense.

I don't think magic sneak attacks are needed. If there was to be added magic sneak attacks, two handed weapons should also get that.

Sneak criticals should be limited to only short blade weapons IMO.

Well, you can be a stealthy mage by using conjuration in Morrowind and Oblivion. You just stay hidden and summon beasts to fight for you.

Tough I would also like some other ways to implement magic for stealthy mages.

I don't see why, for example, a fireball would do much more damage when cast while sneaking, but on_touch -magic could do more damage because you have a chance to find you enemies weak spots when you sneak close to them before casting, much like you could when stabbing with a dagger while sneaking.

One other way to make this happen is to allow mages to plant magical traps or sort of magical "landmines". So you could place these "magical bombs" while sneaking, then lure your enemy near them and detonate them at once by casting, for example, a fireball at the mines/planted_bombs, engulfing your enemy in flames or frost or whatever. This could be highly effective, but not necessarily overpowering cause placing traps would consume time and it would be risky cause enemy could detect you if you didn't have high enough sneak-skill or you stepped into light or something. I would also like if there was a way that you could set these traps off accidentally when you building them if you weren't careful, because that could happen also with actual bombs and that's one of the downsides of this tactic.

It could be so that the bombs would be inert for a certain time period after you have built them, and the length of that period is based on your skill and the spell used to "build" them, and after that period the bombs would activate, turn into mines, and detonate even if you go near them. This way your skill would determine how much damage you could do by restricting the amount of bombs you can place to certain area. And if you got greedy and attempted to put too many bombs to same area they would turn into mines and detonate before you can leave the area.

Edit: typos.

Aside from the issue that many many spells have no effect on a targets health...

The problem I see with this is that sneak attacks only gain bonus damage as a way of simulating a finesse style attack against an un-aware opponent. They effectively represent a person taking the time to identify a weak spot and striking at it without opposition.
This is not something you can do with a massive maul or claymore very well.
Likewise, a massive ball of flame in Nirn is not considered to be a finnessable weapon. You are not using a precision attack agains a tiny critical weakspot, because all your concentration is going into casting the spell in the first place. Destructive magic is like a two handed weapon, it is designed as a brute force attack, and as such you are not able to gain a bonus to the damage it does just because the enemy is unaware.

From a more mechanic and game ballancing perspective, spells already have a damage modifier that can be applied. If you want a weak frequent blow like a common unstealthed dagger, you make a weak damage spell and fire it over and over. If you want to get in a harder blow, like a sneak critical dagger, you simply use a bigger meaner spell that consumes more magicka.

If the Devs felt that there should be some greater synergy between stealth skills and magicka skills, beside the obvious existing synergy of utility spells like illusion or alteration, then is should be in the area of non-damaging debuffs.
I think it would be reasonable to request that some spell effects don't directly make the target aware they have been effected by an attack. Such as reducing the enemies elemental resistances or making them feel sleepy and less alert. Such aggressive effects, it could reasonably be argued, should not alert the enemy and thus give you a greater oportunity to use the sneak mechanic to cast a devistating spell or get in close for a real "sneak attack".

If a fireball comes on an enemy they should notice it yes BUT i think it should still kill them because they are unprepared.

id actually have no problem with having daedric warhammers do a bit of extra damage if you can successfully perform a sneak attack. the victim would be braced for it so it should do more damage than if they saw it coming and readied themselves. it should just be a little bit harder to sneak with them.

magic is not based on any particular weak area. sneak attacks work with daggers very well because all armor has weak points in the groin, underarms, neck, behind the knees and other areas. normally a dagger would be much of a threat to a knight with a sword but stick that svcker under their armpit when they arent looking and cut a major artery and they will be dead in no time flat. how exactly do you get a fireball or lighting to cut through chain mail and leather to cut a artery.......it just doesnt work that way.

Seems like it would be a hard to miss a half ton of rumbling metal automobile too, but the dead person I saw in the street today proves otherwise. Sneak attack critical.

I feel your pain OP, but like some have said, magic would probably end up overpowered.

Maybe some kind of specific stealth spell could work. :shrug: “Mephalas Whisper” or something? Just a thought.

With electricity running at the tips of my fingers I hid behind the crate as to hide from the Imperial assassin that had been running after me, I heard him get closer and closer but realized he didn′t notice me when I heard him stop and pick a bottle from his bag, I peaked out from behind the crate and noticed he had his back to me, this was my chance at escape! I had to act quick before he gulped down that detect life potion so I reached towards him slowly with my hand, lighting at the ready. A single touch was all that I′d need to make my escape, just a light tap on his back and I could make a run for it while he twitched in angst on the floor... but as I crouched there staring at his back with sweat pearling down my forhead I wondered if it would be enough to tap him in the back, I look down and found my new target, right between his legs.

Edit: I′m up for sneak damage on touch spells, but not ranged.

Seems like it would be a hard to miss a half ton of rumbling metal automobile too, but the dead person I saw in the street today proves otherwise. Sneak attack critical.

I feel your pain OP, but like some have said, magic would probably end up overpowered.

Maybe some kind of specific stealth spell could work. “Mephalas Whisper” or something? Just a thought.

So you are basically saying, that flames cast directly inside of your armor would do same damage as they would do when cast outside? And shock directly to that weak point, such as armpit or groin, feels the same as shock to your metal cuirass? That doesn't work even in a real wold. I tell you, you can stick a taser ten times to a metal cuirass I'm wearing if in return I can stick taser once to your unprotected groin. Then we'll see whats the difference. To those who don't know what happens with the cuirass, the metal will short circuit the electricity rendering the person wearing the cuirass unharmed.

So what I'm saying is that if we assume that fire and electricity behave same way in TES as they do in real world, then there could be some damage bonus when they are cast on_touch and undetected without it being "unrealistic" or something like that.

Perhaps some 'on touch' spells could be applied stealthily. Not the health damaging kind, but maybe something like drain strength. It would be pretty cool to be able to sneak into a room and draining everyone's strength a bit before attacking.

That would also make something like 'drain mercantile' on merchants useful, if it won't turn them hostile.

heat is heat and electricity is electricity. its behavior doesnt change. the only variable that changes in spell casting is how many joules for flames or volts/amps for electricity you would cast. and in the game you always cast the same amount all the time. if i come at you with a knife when you can see me you can deflect it and survive longer than if i snuck up behind and just stuck in your jugular. if i taser you it doesnt matter if you see me or not it does the same damage either way. everyone has burned their hands on a stove top at some point in their lives. does it hurt less if i turn on the stove and watch my hand as i stick it on the coil..........hell no its going to hurt exactly the same. it makes no sense that a sneak flame attack would be hotter than a regular fireball..........wouldnt you be casting it as hot as you can all the time.

the only way i could see magic working in a surprise situation would be somthing like sneaking up behind someone and grabbing both their arms and using electricity to numb their arms so that they drop their weapons. im not sure what else would work though.

a bit OT, i agree about the metal cuirass and electricity. i always thought different materials should be resistant to different spells. leather would be resistant to frost and metal would be resistant to electrical spells glass would be resistatn to flames, etc.........but thats probably not going to happen.

If you have experienced geting a taser shot with a metal plate on you and you say that it's harmless, I must consider that there can be some parameter i'm not aware of in that example. If you haven't try this, DON'T DO IT. Considering what I know of electricity (and I know a lot) raising your conductivity won't make you less prone to be killed by electricity. If you would be totally surrounded by metal, WITHOUT touching the exterior surface (so an armor make or different pieces wouldn't work here) you could be protected, as electricity would pass by the external surface (faraday cage), but only in that case.

Like! :flamethrower: Critical damage on spells FTW!