[RELz] Sneak Penalties : IV

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:34 am

== Sneak Penalties ==

REQUIRES OBSE

I love sneaking around, it's one of the most fun parts of the game. Unfortunately once you reach a certain sneak level there is no challenge in it. If you avoid bright light and stay behind your enemies they never see you, no matter what you do. This mod aims to make sneaking a bit more challenging even for characters with a sneak skill of 75+. So here is what the mod does:

1. Walking and running increases your chance of being detected, but what about looking around and rotating your body? I always found it odd that my character can act like a whirling dervish in front of an enemy as long as he doesn't walk and stays in the dark. Now you'll get a penalty for rotating/looking around (moving the camera along the z-axis). The faster you rotate, the higher the penalty will be. If you hear something behind you and turn around by 180° in a split second for example your chances of being detected will greatly increase.

2. I'm not sure whether jumping has an impact in the vanilla sneak system (at least it is not mentioned on the detection page of the CS Wiki), but if it has the impact is far too low. Jumping is loud and a fast moving body can easily be spotted. This mod gives a sneak penalty if you jump or fall down.

3. The higher your sneak skill, the easier sneaking becomes. Sounds good, but after a certain point it becomes too easy in my opinion. I made a setting that reduces the effectiveness of your sneak skill depending on its value. Very high values will be less efficient than before (albeit still more efficient than lower values of course) while low values will be almost as efficient as in vanilla so you can still sneak around with a sneak skill of 25 without being detected all the time. By default the setting will decrease the efficieny of a sneak value of 100 to what you would get
with a sneak value of 80 in vanilla. A low sneak value like 20 for example will be as efficient as in vanilla (almost at least, for statistic freaks: it will be as efficient as 19.2 points in vanilla).

4. While it can be hard already to sneak in front of someone with a line of sight it is incredibly easy to sneak up on someone with no line of sight. The principle stays the same (sneaking is much, much easier if enemies have no line of sight), but I altered a game setting so you need to be a bit careful at least when you approach someone from behind.

5. If you stand still in a dark spot in vanilla nobody will ever see you, even if the person is only a few feet away from you with a direct line of sight. This mod gives your character a penalty for standing still. Doesn't sound right at first, but no worries, standing still is more effective than walking around even with this penalty. But it's not equal to invisibility like in vanilla.

6. If an enemy has a line of sight while you wear a torch or have a light spell active you get a penalty for sneaking by default already due to the light that shines on you. But if enemies don't have a line of sight you don't get any penalty, which is quite unrealistic if you approach someone from behind while wearing a torch. Even the most stupid person would notice that someone is behind him if suddenly the whole room around him would light up and if he'd hear a burning torch behind him. Now there is a penalty for wearing a torch or using a light spell, line of sight or not.

7. By default if an actor is in 'alerted state' (if they say things like 'Who's there?' etc) they don't move at all. They're frozen in place and look in the direction they were facing when they got into the alerted state. Once the alert is over ('Must have been the rats' etc) they return to their normal behavior and start to walk around again. Now they will start to look around slowly in alerted state. They won't suddenly look in the opposite direction, but the longer they are in alerted state the more they will look around so you need to be careful and adjust the angle at which you approach them if they're alerted.

8. While feature number 5 already makes it easier for enemies to spot you while you stand still it is not enough as I noticed. Some enemies still bumped into me while I was waiting and I even managed to sneak past a goblin right in front of his nose (I even bumped him to the side since there was not enough space for both of us!). Now there is a minimum distance at which someone with a direct line of sight will always spot you. If you come within someone's reach while he's looking in your direction the fun is over, 100 sneak or not.

9. You get a small penalty for being in combat with another enemy while in sneak mode, but it's still pretty easy to fight enemies undetected with other enemies standing nearby as long as you don't leave sneak mode. Now you'll get a huge penalty for being in combat. To make it more interesting I added a timer so you always get a second chance before other enemies are alerted. If your first sneak hit didn't kill the enemy you get a few seconds to finish him off before all hell breaks loose. If you manage to kill him during that time nothing will happen and no one will notice you. I also made sure that this part of the mod is compatible with SM Combat Hide, the penalty is removed after a few seconds in combat (enough time to alert all enemies around you, but it's not impossible to hide afterwards if you use Combat Hide or a similar mod).

All penalties can be adjusted in an ini file.

= Installation =

Put the content of the archive into your Oblivion\Data folder. Check the 'PTSneakPenalties.esp' in the launcher. Don't forget that you can adjust all the penalties in the ini file in Data\ini.

= Compatibility =

All this mod adds is a self-contained script. Thus it is theoretically compatible with every other mod out there. Please note that the mod messes with some sneak game settings though. If other mods attempt to change them they may conflict. Nothing serious will happen, but you might see unexpected AI behavior in that case. Most stealth mods should work fine though, I use a few of them myself.

= Changelog =

v1.0

- Initial release

v1.1

- fixed a small oversight were a sneak penalty would stick if you went out of sneak mode while standing still (which would be removed the next time you sneak, but whatever)
- added two new features
- slightly reduced the difficulty for the default ini settings (just play with the ini if you think it's too easy now)

v1.2

- fixed a few bugs with the 'alerted state' behavior and made it look a bit better
- added another variable to the ini so you can adjust the amount of alertness

v1.3

- added a minimum distance at which enemies will always spot you if they have a line of sight
- added a penalty for being in combat while in sneak mode
- made sure the player is not affected by the token script (don't ask)

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35792

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:57 pm

You and your piles of stuff I need for next time I actually get to play...

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:08 am

Hey Phitt, that's another must-have!

Does your mod factors light, carrying lit torches and distance from creatures and NPCs (non-companions) ?
[If not, would you be interested in implemementing them? That would be great!]

I ask as those are key features for realism, AFAIK covered only by http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15025,
which I can't play due to incompatibilities.

Thanks

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:47 am

You were looking for this before, you didn't find it before, you did it yourself. Man, you're amazing

Downloading this and deleting Combat Hide to try out this one...

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:33 am

You and your piles of stuff I need for next time I actually get to play...

Hey, thanks. Although one of 'my' mods is basically your mod so...

Hey Phitt, that's another must-have!

Does your mod factors light, carrying lit torches and distance from creatures and NPCs (non-companions) ?
[If not, would you be interested in implemementing them? That would be great!]

I ask as those are key features for realism, AFAIK covered only by http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=15025,
which I can't play due to incompatibilities.

Thanks

Not sure I understand. The detection system already factors light, torches, distance etc by default. The rotating and jump stuff is a simple modifier on your sneak skill, so if you are in bright light while rotating/jumping you are even more likely to be detected than if you are in a dark spot (and if you're close to an enemy/far away etc as well of course). For the proximity based sneak penalty in my mod I use a game setting, so it also depends on light, distance to detecting actor etc and the calculation is done for each actor independently. One difference to 'Proximity Based Sneak Penalties' is that actors will still not detect you even if they're really close if you're in a dark spot as long as you have a high sneak skill and don't move (which includes that you don't rotate/jump). But if you move or do silly things they will see you unlike vanilla where they never see you. You could mess with the ini settings if you still think it's too easy to avoid enemies, but during my tests I thought it worked pretty well for me. Don't want to make sneaking impossible after all.

@ Masterplan: It's not really what I was looking for as it still doesn't fix the 'stand around and look in one direction' problem of NPCs. But they're much more likely to detect you in general now once they've become suspicious. You also don't need to delete SM Combat Hide, I use it myself (with slightly altered ini settings) and it works well with this mod as it does something completely different.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:43 am

Good, so I only need to add

Well, at least you will attenuate this problem increasing the difficult of sneaking. I'll test and see.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:37 am

You also don't need to delete SM Combat Hide, I use it myself (with slightly altered ini settings) and it works well with this mod as it does something completely different.

This looks like just the qualities missing from the game I have wanted for a while. Giving those hiding moments more pressure on the user to be still and hold your breath, as you would RL. Daring slight movement as the danger walks past and takes you out of his/her angle of site. Thanks Phitt, looks like this is going to be another essential for us too.

Reference the SM Combat hide, I have not used that before either - What slightly altered ini settings would you recommend for use with Sneak Penalties?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:53 am

Not sure I understand. The detection system already factors light, torches, distance etc by default. For the proximity based sneak penalty in my mod I use a game setting, so it also depends on light, distance to detecting actor etc and the calculation is done for each actor independently. One difference to 'Proximity Based Sneak Penalties' is that actors will still not detect you even if they're really close if you're in a dark spot as long as you have a high sneak skill and don't move (which includes that you don't rotate/jump). But if you move or do silly things they will see you unlike vanilla where they never see you. You could mess with the ini settings if you still think it's too easy to avoid enemies, but during my tests I thought it worked pretty well for me. Don't want to make sneaking impossible after all.

I agree with you, sneaking should be realistic but not impossible!

I assume the detection system you're referring to is the one implemented by your mod.. If so, great

Only thing I know is that with my current related-mods (Real Lights, Cava Obscura, RGO, Stealth Overhaul, See No Evil) as long they don't face me,
I can backstab goblins right in the darkness of the tutorial dungeon +with a lit torch in my hand+ and they never detect me.. Highly unrealistic and immersion-breaking.

Well, thanks again for this new release and the kind reply!

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:50 pm

This looks like just the qualities missing from the game I have wanted for a while. Giving those hiding moments more pressure on the user to be still and hold your breath, as you would RL. Daring slight movement as the danger walks past and takes you out of his/her angle of site. Thanks Phitt, looks like this is going to be another essential for us too.

Reference the SM Combat hide, I have not used that before either - What slightly altered ini settings would you recommend for use with Sneak Penalties?

Personally I found that hiding is a bit too easy, especially if you try to hide from archers (since they don't follow you). This is unfortunately a problem with the mod that can't be fixed 100%. They aim at you and you hide behind a rock. If you wait long enough they'll suddenly forget that you are behind that rock. But they will look for you (although they don't necessarily look behind your rock) and they will be much more suspicious if you try to sneak up on them again so it's ok for me.

I only altered

SetGS iAICombatMinDetection -48 (default -47)
set aaaControlQuest.sSecondsPlayerHidden to 15 (default 10)

I agree with you, sneaking should be realistic but not impossible!

I assume the detection system you're referring to is the one implemented by your mod.. If so, great

Only thing I know is that with my current related-mods (Real Lights, Cava Obscura, RGO, Stealth Overhaul, See No Evil) as long they don't face me,
I can backstab goblins right in the darkness of the tutorial dungeon +with a lit torch in my hand+ and they never detect me.. Highly unrealistic and immersion-breaking.

Well, thanks again for this new release and the kind reply!

Didn't know about the torch thing. But it makes sense (not from a 'realism' point of view, but if you look at the system I mean). As long as they don't have a line of sight the light factor doesn't matter. It should be pretty easy to fix - I'll try to get it done tomorrow.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:08 am

I only altered

SetGS iAICombatMinDetection -48 (default -47)
set aaaControlQuest.sSecondsPlayerHidden to 15 (default 10)

Didn't know about the torch thing. But it makes sense (not from a 'realism' point of view, but if you look at the system I mean). As long as they don't have a line of sight the light factor doesn't matter. It should be pretty easy to fix - I'll try to get it done tomorrow.

Thank you, also looking forward to see the next installment with the possible torch detection when out of sight.

Just going through the ini settings for both downloads at the moment, I think I like the look of your defaults along with the suggested for SM Combat hide, going to give the setup a run through the Dark Brotherhood quests - Should make things a bit more challenging in places

Edit: And I think these two mods are going to compliment T.I.E quite nicely too.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:24 am

Ohh goody!!

A replacement for Proximity Based Sneak Penalties - thanks so much.

This is great. You know if you are open to suggestions I'd recommend including things like what you are wearing having an influence. Though I use http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=6359 so it covers some of that but I can see more controls being placed on that. I also use mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13533 (converted to an esp) which gives bonuses for removing boots (the bonuses show up as spell effects).

thanks again

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:37 am

Sounds great Phitt, should be perfect for my thief when I get around to my next playthrough. The added challenge should make sneaking more rewarding. :foodndrink:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:27 am

You and your piles of stuff I need for next time I actually get to play...

He lies - He never plays the bloody game.

But your rampage must be stopped, O Lord of the Phitt! I, Sir shadeMe, chllange you to a duel - Install PiiiP and get started.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:31 am

Wow, that was fast. Is this compatible with http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=OblivionMods.Detail&id=305?

I just realized this was the mod I was thinking of when I posted in the other thread. I haven't read the readme since I installed it. :facepalm:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:09 am

Phitt, you are making the game harder and harder. It's pretty neat, actually. When combined with mods that add static-level enemies, things can get really hairy!

For now, this mod goes in a pile (folder) along with Tejon's Fatigue Effects, for when I have time to play a damn hard game. My goal for the past bunch of months has been to actually experience some of the content I've never encountered (which is a lot). But, dude, when I finally bust out that folder for a real challenging bit of play - watch out! It'll be a miracle if I get out of the starter dungeon alive!

Thanks.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:00 am

Updated the mod to v1.1. Changes:

1. If you wear a torch or have a light spell active you'll get a huge penalty. It's basically the same as running around without sneak mode. With a decent sneak skill you should still be able to get rather close to enemies, but it should be really, really hard to make them not notice you before you can land a melee hit.

2. Suspicious actors ('Where are you?' etc) will now change their heading from time to time. They're not frozen in place anymore once they notice something. They won't suddenly look in the opposite direction (as that would be unfair), but if you are too slow or don't adjust the angle at which you're approaching them they might get a line of sight on you.

3. Slightly decreased the difficulty for the default values in the ini as I found that it was maybe a bit too difficult for my sneak 77 character (without 75 perk though due to enchantments that bring him above 75 sneak). If you think it's too easy now adjust the ini.

You know if you are open to suggestions I'd recommend including things like what you are wearing having an influence. Though I use http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=6359 so it covers some of that but I can see more controls being placed on that. I also use mod http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=13533 (converted to an esp) which gives bonuses for removing boots (the bonuses show up as spell effects).

I thought Stealth Overhaul does a pretty good job regarding the armor/weight/weapon type thing. Personally I don't like inventory micro management and having different gear for all kinds of different situations. My character simply wears the best light armor he can find (which currently is the DB armor). I wouldn't want to be able to sneak around in full plate armor without problems, but that's more or less as complicated as I want the system to be in my game. If you have some neat ideas on why/how equipment you wear could be implemented I'd add it maybe.

He lies - He never plays the bloody game.

But your rampage must be stopped, O Lord of the Phitt! I, Sir shadeMe, chllange you to a duel - Install PiiiP and get started.

I've said the same for almost four years (when I finally play the game...) without ever doing it.

I have to admit that I never took a closer look at PiiiP, but after doing so I'll install it right away. Your descriptions alone make me want to play with it. I'll see how much annoyance I can cause by throwing around items.

Wow, that was fast. Is this compatible with http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=OblivionMods.Detail&id=305?

I just realized this was the mod I was thinking of when I posted in the other thread. I haven't read the readme since I installed it. :facepalm:

Yes, the setting altered by Attack and Hide is not touched by my mod. But due to the sneak penalties (mainly the one for standing still) it might be harder to hide. If you can't hide anymore you may want to try SM Combat Hide instead, it works great with Sneak Penalties and I can still hide from enemies if I pay attention and if I'm far enough away from them when hiding.

Phitt, you are making the game harder and harder. It's pretty neat, actually. When combined with mods that add static-level enemies, things can get really hairy!

For now, this mod goes in a pile (folder) along with Tejon's Fatigue Effects, for when I have time to play a damn hard game. My goal for the past bunch of months has been to actually experience some of the content I've never encountered (which is a lot). But, dude, when I finally bust out that folder for a real challenging bit of play - watch out! It'll be a miracle if I get out of the starter dungeon alive!

Thanks.

I have to admit that I made the first few character levels a bit annoying with my mods. Even I thought that and I like the game to be hard. But level 1 and 2 was a chore to play...it was about killing mud crabs (and only mud crabs) and running away from wolves (which wasn't possible due to Deadlier Creatures...). Patrolling Legion soldiers were my best friends, I know them all by name now.

Now that I've played with each character type (warrior, mage, thief) the only thing that really needs fixing are enchantments, spells and alchemy - all of which can still be exploited to no end. My mage is by far the most powerful character while warrior and thief both have their advantages and disadvantages.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:22 am

Yeah I wasn't asking to give options to make sneaking in heavy armor possible - just penalties and you are right Stealth Overhaul is good.

What stealth mods do you play with other than this?

I use:
Stealth Overhaul
SM combat Hide
Realistic Sneak for NPCs
Sneaky Feet
Morrowind lockpicking & Lock bash omega ... and a few others.

Also I've been acting as mod scout for John123 and recently http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1132738-relz-johns-leveled-list-overhaul/page__view__findpost__p__16726741 as he is looking for mods that have armor and weapons to put into leveled lists - could he use those armors?

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:33 am

Updated the mod to v1.1. Changes:

1. If you wear a torch or have a light spell active you'll get a huge penalty. It's basically the same as running around without sneak mode. With a decent sneak skill you should still be able to get rather close to enemies, but it should be really, really hard to make them not notice you before you can land a melee hit.

2. Suspicious actors ('Where are you?' etc) will now change their heading from time to time. They're not frozen in place anymore once they notice something. They won't suddenly look in the opposite direction (as that would be unfair), but if you are too slow or don't adjust the angle at which you're approaching them they might get a line of sight on you.

3. Slightly decreased the difficulty for the default values in the ini as I found that it was maybe a bit too difficult for my sneak 77 character (without 75 perk though due to enchantments that bring him above 75 sneak). If you think it's too easy now adjust the ini.

Very nice, and you solved the static actors with this too. Going to try this out when I get home later.

Had a mess around in IC last night, doing silly things like finding a lone guard, just get slightly out of his line of sight to be successfully sneaking, then jump up/down like a mentalist.
Depending on proximity I was getting briefly detected.

And similarly with the turning fast detection.. amazed, it works.

Went lurking around some dark door entrances too where guards walk past frequently to test how slowly you need to move so as not to be detected ... I think you have this nailed Phitt. It definately gives the player more need for caution in your movement.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:14 pm

Yeah I wasn't asking to give options to make sneaking in heavy armor possible - just penalties and you are right Stealth Overhaul is good.

I know, just wanted to say that I thought the penalty options added by Stealth Overhaul are enough so I don't need to introduce any new ones in my mod.

What stealth mods do you play with other than this?

I use:
Stealth Overhaul
SM combat Hide
Realistic Sneak for NPCs
Sneaky Feet
Morrowind lockpicking & Lock bash omega ... and a few others.

Also I've been acting as mod scout for John123 and recently http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1132738-relz-johns-leveled-list-overhaul/page__view__findpost__p__16726741 as he is looking for mods that have armor and weapons to put into leveled lists - could he use those armors?

I use

Stealth Overhaul
SM combat Hide
Morrowind lockpicking
No Psychic Guards

I'll also install Piiip like mentioned above, a part of it could be considered a stealth mod as well (items hitting the ground make noise that attracts actors). I wonder how it works in combination with my Explosives mod (which is mainly for stealth characters as well) - 'Huh...what's that...let's have a look'.

And yes, John123 is free to use Knightly Armory. I guess I should change the permission text, I never say no anyway.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:02 am

And yet another one from The Phitt. .:goodjob:

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:16 am

TESNexus has messed up the download versioning (why did they change the way this is done?)

Sneak_Penalties_V_1_1-35792-1-0.7z - No biggie its just a rename.

Just about to install and go find someone to murder

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:15 am

Phitt just on my way to find a lonely victim, my sneak skill is about 58 at the moment, came across a mounted guard and decided to do a bit of sneaking behind...

http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7016256ScreenShot2.jpg

As I get closer you can tell he has become aware because the strange torch multiple flare blooms start first, a little closer and he stops his horse (though the horse walks on the spot) and he looks left and right. I stop, he starts moving on again and a little later when I am not detected the torch flare blooms vanish so there is just one torch light.

If I repeat the process it does happen every time. Also using SM Combat Hide at this time, ini settings same as yours and for now gone with the new 1.1 version Sneak Penalties default ini settings.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:37 am

Just noticed that actors change their direction a bit too much and too often when they become suspicious. I implemented a setting that controls the timing of their movement (how often they move if suspicious) and decreased the angle at which they move. Now they'll rotate 36° instead of 45° every 3-6 seconds (which can be adjusted now) instead of every second. Only if they notice something of course. Will upload later after some more testing...

Phitt just on my way to find a lonely victim, my sneak skill is about 58 at the moment, came across a mounted guard and decided to do a bit of sneaking behind...

http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7016256ScreenShot2.jpg

As I get closer you can tell he has become aware because the strange torch multiple flare blooms start first, a little closer and he stops his horse (though the horse walks on the spot) and he looks left and right. I stop, he starts moving on again and a little later when I am not detected the torch flare blooms vanish so there is just one torch light.

If I repeat the process it does happen every time. Also using SM Combat Hide at this time, ini settings same as yours and for now gone with the new 1.1 version Sneak Penalties default ini settings.

...no idea about the torches, but the horse walking on the spot might be caused by my mod. Since actors don't move willingly while suspicious I used a little trick to make them move - I play their turn left/turn right anims and rotate them by a few degrees in the appropriate direction. Since the horse is controlled by its rider it probably plays the turning animation but can't rotate since it has no own will (which looks like moonwalk). I will make a check to make sure that horses currently ridden are not affected. I will also try to find someone with a torch to see whether the strange flares effect happens in my game as well.

» Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:02 pm

Okay continuing with the hunt, see what else I can find which may not have been considered.

» Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:28 am

Tested myself and indeed I could produce a flare and saw a horse do a short moonwalk when I sneaked behind a mounted Imperial Legion soldier at night. Fixed it, now actors riding a horse and horses will not be affected by the direction changes. I tested with non-mounted actors holding torches and they didn't produce any flares so thank god it only seems to be a problem with mounted actors.

Okay continuing with the hunt, see what else I can find which may not have been considered.

I'll wait patiently...don't get irritated by the directions changes, like I posted above it's been fixed already and in the next version actors will change their direction less often and to a lesser degree only.