Sneak Tools for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Download Link: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/19447/
Forum Thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1365057-beta-sneak-tools/
Version 1.00
29 January 2013
Borgut1337

1. Index
1. Index
2. Requirements
3. Recommended Mods
4. Mod Description
5. Upgrading From A Previous Version
6. Installation
7. Uninstallation
8. Incompatibilities
9. Known Issues/Bugs
10. F.A.Q.
11. Version History
12. Permissions & Disclaimer
13. Contact Information
14. Tools Used
15. Credits

2. Requirements
- A working, official copy of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, updated to version 1.8.151.0 or higher.
- Skyrim Script Extender (SKSE) version 1.6.6 or higher, available here: http://skse.silverlock.org/

3. Recommended Mods
- SkyUI 3.0 or higher: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/3863
Without this, there will be no in-game configuration menu to configure Sneak Tools.
Also, take a look at my other mods:
- Deadly Combat: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/5485
- Dual Wield Parrying: http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=9247
- Dodge Mod: http://www.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/29258/

4. Mod Description
This mod aims to improve stealth gameplay by adding new tools and gameplay options to give the player more control and more things to do when sneaking, instead of only being able to slowly walk around and hope noone detects you.

It is important to notice that first of all this mod is about ADDING new options, NOT about tweaking the already existing gameplay, although I might get to that later too when I feel like I have all the basic options I want to have in my gameplay.

Throat Slitting
Whenever you:
- are sneaking and
- have a dagger or one-handed sword drawn and
- activate an NPC you are standing behind

you will attempt to slit the NPC's throat instead of pickpocketing. If succesfull, this will result in a guarantueed kill and an animation of you slitting the NPC's throat. If the throat slit is not succesfull, the target will react just as if you had attacked him, but your attack will fail.

Whether a throat slit is succesful or not depends on the difference in level between the player and the target, the player’s Sneak and One Handed Skills, the target’s Sneak Skill, whether the target is aware of the player, whether the target is in combat, whether the target is wearing any helm and if he is, what type of helm that is.

If you enabled the menu pop-ups through the MCM menu or dialogue with Horstar (see further down), there will be a confirmation menu first which asks you whether you wish to slit throat or pickpocket.

By default, you will not get the option to slit the throat of an essential NPC. This option can be changed through the MCM menu or dialogue with Horstar as well, but throat slits on essential NPCs WILL result in deaths and therefore might possibly break quests which require the NPC to be alive.

Knocking unconscious
Whenever you:
- are sneaking and
- have your fists or a one-handed mace raised and
- activate an NPC you are standing behind or an NPC that is sleeping

you will knock the NPC unconscious instead of pickpocketing. This will result
in the player swinging his fist, and if this attack hits the NPC, he will drop down unconscious.
If anyone that cares about crimes against the victim witnesses this act, it will be treated as
an assault.

The unconscious body can not be dragged around like dead bodies can in vanilla skyrim, but it can be pushed around by activating the body whenever you are not sneaking. If you activate the body whilst sneaking you will be able to access the victim's inventory.

Whenever someone did not witness the crime directly, but does see the unconscious body later, he will enter an ''alert'' state. While in this state, if they see you touching the victim
(either trying to move the body or accessing the inventory), it will also be treated as an assault.

If they get near you while in this alerted state and you walk around with your fists or weapons
raised, they will also realise that you are the criminal and report you for assaulting.

Lastly, if you are currently trespassing and they have seen the unconscious body and now see you they will also report you for assault (probably in addition to trespassing).
After 10 minutes of real time, an unconscious person will wake up again.

If you enabled the menu pop-ups through dialogue with Horstar, there will be a confirmation menu first which asks you whether you wish to knock out or pickpocket.

Killing Sleeping Targets
Whenever you:
- have any kind of melee weapon drawn (fists do not count) and
- activate an NPC that is sleeping

you will be given an option whether you would like to perform the default action (which is
either talking or pickpocketing, depending on whether you are sneaking or not) or whether
you want to kill the target. If you choose for the latter, you will execute 3 powerful
strikes in rapid succession in the direction you are looking.

If you somehow managed to activate this NPC without looking at him, this will result in missing your attacks and nothing happening, but if the strikes connect they will kill the NPC (assuming he is not essential).
If you enabled the menu pop-ups through dialogue with Horstar, there will be a confirmation menu first which asks you whether you wish to slit throat or pickpocket.

By default, you will not get the option to kill an essential NPC. This option can be changed through dialogue with Horstar as well, but if you use this move on essential NPCs it WILL result in deaths and therefore might possibly break quests which require the NPC to be alive.

Identity-Concealing Masks
This mod introduces identity-concealing masks, inspired by the Gray Cowl of Nocturnal in Oblivion and the Bandanas in Red Dead Redemption.

The default Sneak Tools.esp file contains one type of mask, named ''Dark Cowl'', which can be crafted at any forge in the Leather section and can be bought from Horstar.
There are also 2 optional files which add this identity-concealing functionality to some appropriate vanilla Skyrim headwear.

Now some details about how these masks work:
- When you equip a mask, 2 things can happen:
(1) If you are not noticed putting the mask on, and are not already remembered as being the wearer of the mask from being detected earlier, your current bounties in all of Skyrim's holds will be remembered by the mod internally and will then be replaced by a ''Mask Bounty'', which starts at 0 by default.

(2) If you are noticed putting the mask on or still remembered from being detected earlier, the
people of Skyrim will know it is you. Skyrim's people will only notice you putting the mask on if they are in combat (it will make them more alert to their surroundings), if you are sneaking (they will think that you are acting suspiciously and keep an eye out) or if you are currently trespassing. In this case, you will be rememberd as being the person wearing the mask.
In addition to this, your ''Mask Bounty'' will be added onto your ''Real Bounty'', because the people of Skyrim now know who commited those earlier crimes.

- When you unequip a mask, again 2 things can happen:
(1) If you are not noticed taking the mask off, and are not already rememberd as being the wearer of the mask from being detected earlier, your current ''Mask Bounties'' in all of Skyrim's holds will be remembered by the mod internally and will then be replaced by your ''Real Bounty'' again which was remembered by the mod when you initially equipped the mask.

(2) If you are noticed taking the mask off (which again happens under the same conditions as
getting detected equipping), and are already remembered as being the wearer of the mask from being detected earlier, your ''Mask Bounty'' will be added onto your ''Real Bounty'', because the people of Skyrim now know who commited those earlier crimes.

- Detection of equipping or unequipping masks does not only happen at the very instant that you (un)equip your mask, but remains possible for a few seconds after that as well. This is to make sure that the player has to find a really safe spot and remain safe for a while, and to make sure that if the player takes his mask off right after hiding behind a corner of a house, the guards that follow around the corner a second later will be able to realise it was you all along.

- If you keep your mask unequipped for 24 in-game hours (or 48 in-game hours if you were ever detected and are remembered as being the mask-wearer), your ''Mask Bounty'' will reset, because after this time it might very well be possible that other, non-guilty citizen of Skyrim have adapted to the latest fashion of wearing masks. Your ''Real Bounty'' will still never reset until you somehow pay them off.

- Skyrim's citizen will treat you with suspicion if you wear a mask. Most people (exceptions are guards, Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild members, followers and Housecarls) will refuse to talk to you when you're wearing a mask.
Additionally, the same people (this time guards included) will tend to look at you more often when wearing a mask and from greater distances. If you get very close to them with your weapon drawn or whilst sneaking, they will get even more suspicious and will keep looking at you all the time, even walking backwards if that is necessary to reach their destination.

As of version 0.60, these effects are produced by an enchantment. This means that you can Disenchant items which conceal your identity and place the enchantment yourself on any item you like.

Extinguishable And (Re)lightable Fires
With this mod, almost all fire-based light sources around Skyrim will gain a new level of gameplay. It is now possible for the player to extinguish any lit fire and to light any extinguished fire through the use of Frost and Fire spells, and newly introduced Fire and Water arrows (see below).
In version the current version of this mod, all campfires, candles and wall-mounted torches from vanilla Skyrim are supported, and if the mod Claralux is installed, all fire-based light sources from Claralux.esm (NOTE: only Claralux.esm from version 2A is supported, since as far as I know there are stability issues with later versions of the mod) will automatically be recognised as well. Fires placed by most other mods should also automatically be recognised, unless they introduce actual new models or new Light emitters.
Currently only the Giant campfires are an exception, because it seems unrealistic to me that these huge fires can be extinguished as easily as smaller fires.

Fires which have been changed from their vanilla state (so lit fires which have been extinguished or unlit fires which have been lit) will automatically revert back to their vanilla state after 24 hours of in-game time if the Player is not in the same location at that time.

If you run into any fire-based light-source (lit or unlit) which does not work as expected, please report it giving the following information:

- The name of the place where you are
- Preferably a screenshot of the object you are trying to extinguish or light
- A description of what doesn't work (does the model not get replaced with an unlit/lit version? Or is the model changed correctly but does it still emit light/no light?)
- If you have mods which place light sources around Skyrim (like Claralux), please list them.

If at some point you decide to stop using this mod but still want a similar feature to this one, I can recommend woodbyte's Dynamic Fires mod available here:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=74004800&searchtext=

Fire Arrows
This mod introduces Fire Arrows, which can be crafted at any forge in the ''Iron'' category.
They can be crafted in batches of 5, 10, 15 or 50. They can also be bought in Horstar's shop.

Fire Arrows are made of a dark wood which deals no damage upon impact by itself, but ignites when fired using a bow. They can be used to set enemies on fire (dealing a small amount of Fire damage or to ignite light sources (see the feature above).

If Dawnguard is installed, batches of 5 Fire Arrows can be converted into batches of 5 Fire Bolts at any forge. Fire Bolts work in exactly the same way that Fire Arrows do, except for that they are bolts which can be fired from crossbows.

Water Arrows
This mod introduces Water Arrows, which can be crafted at any forge in the ''Iron'' category.
They can be crafted in batches of 5, 10, 15 or 50. They can also be bought in Horstar's shop.

Water arrows can be used to extinguish light sources (see the feature above), but have no other special uses.

If Dawnguard is installed, batches of 5 Water Arrows can be converted into batches of 5 Water Bolts at any forge. Water Bolts work in exactly the same way that Water Arrows do, except for that they are bolts which can be fired from crossbows.

Noisemaker Arrows
This mod introduces Noisemaker Arrows, which can be crafted at any forge in the ''Dwemer'' category.
They can be crafted in batches of 5, 10, 15 or 50. They can also be bought in Horstar's shop.
Noisemaker arrows produce a small, harmless but loud explosion upon impact, attracting attention of nearby NPCs.

If Dawnguard is installed, batches of 5 Noisemaker Arrows can be converted into batches of 5 Noisemaker Bolts at any forge. Noisemaker Bolts work in exactly the same way that Noisemaker Arrows do, except for that they are bolts which can be fired from crossbows.

Oil Arrows
This mod introduces Oil Arrows, which can be crafted at any forge in the ''Iron'' category.
They can be crafted in batches of 5, 10, 15 or 50. They can also be bought in Horstar's shop.

Oil arrows will drop a pool of oil upon impact, which can then be set on fire using for example Fire Arrows or any fire-based spell. When fired on NPCs and creatures, they will cover them in oil, making them temporarily very susceptible to fire damage.

If Dawnguard is installed, batches of 5 Oil Arrows can be converted into batches of 5 Oil Bolts at any forge. Oil Bolts work in exactly the same way that Oil Arrows do, except for that they are bolts which can be fired from crossbows.

Rope Arrows
This mod introduces Rope Arrows, which can be crafted at any forge in the ''Iron'' category.
They can be crafted in batches of 5, 10, 15 or 50. They can also be bought in Horstar's shop.

When they hit any surface, they will drop down a rope if there is enough space. These ropes can be activated by the player to climb them.

The ropes do not drop down immediately but it can take up to a second. This is because skyrim's scripting system is quite slow and the scripts do require some complex calculations in order to detect all the surrounding collision. Most of the collision detection is done when the ropes are created and then this data is saved, which means that the ropes require a little bit of time to fall down, but when you actually climb them everything will go smoothly.

If you shoot your rope arrow into a location where there's no space at all for a rope to properly drop down, nothing will happen and the arrow will be wasted.

This is how climbing ropes works:

- The first time you activate a rope, you will be put in ''climbing mode''. This means first of all that you are forced into first person perspective whilst climbing (due to a lack of proper climbing animations this is the only way I can make it look decent) and will automatically sheathe any weapons. Some of your controls (mostly combat related controls and the ability to switch back to third person mode) are disabled.
This can also be done while in mid-air (for example when jumping from one rope to another rope), and generally your character will manage to grab hold of the rope quickly and will then remain hanging at the height where you grabbed the rope, allowing you to continue climbing up or down from there.

- Any time you activate the same rope, or a different adjacent rope nearby, you will climb up or down a bit depending on where you look at, and the distance climbed also depends on how far up or how far down you look.
To prevent clipping with terrain, you will sometimes climb in an unexpected direction if you try to climb up when already at the top of a rope, or if you try to climb down if you already are at the bottom of a rope, but generally it works as expected.

- Whenever you move or jump, you will automatically leave climbing mode. This means that you regain all of your controls, and will drop down unless you activate the same or a different nearby rope again.

- Whilst climbing a rope, your jump height is temporarily greatly increased. This allows you to more easily jump on top of a ledge after climbing to the top of a rope.

Ropes will automatically be cleaned up after 2 full in-game days. If at that moment the ropes are in sight of the player, they will not yet be cleaned up and the game will attempt to clean them up every 2 days again.

If Dawnguard is installed, batches of 5 Rope Arrows can be converted into batches of 5 Rope Bolts at any forge. Rope Bolts work in exactly the same way that Rope Arrows do, except for that they are bolts which can be fired from crossbows.

New Shop
A Nord man named Horstar has opened a new shop somewhere within the sewers of Skyrim. Being a shady person, he does not want to reveal his location and only allows you to enter his shop through a Lesser Power named Shadow's Refuge, which you will automatically learn to cast upon installing the mod.

If you are in Horstar's shop when you cast the lesser power, it will teleport you to your previous location. If you are not in his shop, it will teleport you to his shop.

He sells some general goods fit for thieves and assasins (one handed weapons, bows, arrows, lockpicks) but also all new items from this mod.

Through dialogue, he also allows you to customise certain aspects of the mod. By talking to him about ''Tricks of the Trade'' he'll explain some of the new moves added by this mod and ask you in alore-friendly way whether you want to see menu pop-ups to confirm whether you wish to slit throats/knock unconscious, or whether you want to be able to do so without menu pop-ups.

Similarly, by talking to him about ''Killing'' and answering his following question you'll be able to set whether it's possible to kill essential NPCs through throatslitting/sleep kills.

As of version 1.0, these options can also be configured in the MCM menu for users who have installed SkyUI.

Optional Files
- Sneak Tools Vanilla Hoods.esp: this file adds the identity-concealing mask property to the following vanilla Skyrim headwear:
- Nightingale Hood (all 3 levelled versions)
- Shrouded Cowl (NOT the maskless version)
- Ancient Shrouded Cowl
- Worn Shrouded Cowl

- Sneak Tools Vanilla Masks.esp: this file adds the identity-concealing mask property to the following vanilla Skyrim headwear:
- Hevnoraak
- Konahrik
- Krosis
- Morokei
- Nahkriin
- Otar
- Rahgot
- Vokun
- Volsung
- Wooden Mask

Also included in the download is a short guide for other modders how they can make a patch for their armor mods to add the same identity-concealing functionality to their newly modded masks.

Configuration
If SkyUI 3.0 or higher is installed, there will be an MCM menu allowing you to customize the following features in a user-friendly in-game menu:

- Enable or disable menu pop-ups for throat slits and knocking unconscious
- Allow or disallow essential NPCs to be killed by throat slits and sleep kills
- Enable or disable the throat slitting feature altogether
- Enable or disable the knocking unconscious feature altogether
- Enable or disable the sleep killing feature altogether
- Enable or disable the crafting of items newly introduced by this mod altogether
- Enable or disable the entire mod
- Reset the player’s jumping height to the value of the jumping height when the mod was first installed. In rare cases, rope arrows will permanently triple your jumping height. If you are affected by this bug, use this option in the menu to reset the jumping height.

I'll be honest, I don't care much for the two other things, but daggers always giving killcam? SIGN ME UP.

Hi Borgut,

Small question: uppon getting close enough to a NPC and provided the other conditions are met, how would you give us the options? (pickpocket, knockdown etc) Would you freeze the game and open a menu with clickable options? Or would it be possible to, say, configure 2-3 special keys and pressing those would trigger one of the options automatically? (like, when behind an NPC and with fist up, press 'x' to perform knockdown and 'e' to pickpocket. I would much prefer the later alternative but I understand it may be more complicated and for sure would require SKSE

Love these ideas, hope you pull it off.

I remember you talking about this... I absolutely endorse this idea. It would seem more fluid to not have menus every time I come up behind somebody as it would ruin the immersion, but the aim of the mod still adds immersion in itself. Overall it sounds very neat.

Perhaps (if there's anyway to do it...) you 'hold' down the button to perform a stealth kill, and just tap the button to perform a 'knockout'

All good things come from Holland!

Very nice!

The menu isn't a very elegant solution for knockdowns/killmoves, if you ask me. The people who would use this mod often go through a whole dungeon by sneak-killing their enemies, and with that way of playing, a menu for every kill or knockdown gets tiresome really fast.

Also, I don't understand why you need this menu in the first place for daggers. Why don't you just increase the backstabbing bonus for daggers so that they always kill?
Not that I'd prefer that option really - I think what you're trying to do here is very unbalancing, and not necessarily realistic. If you aren't skilled with your dagger or if you have a blunt dagger, it's very likely that you won't kill someone, even if you're undetected. You might still cause sufficient damage to give you a big advantage in the following combat. I think this basic idea isn't bad game design - the execution (pun?) of it is a different matter though. I think daggers could be slightly more and all other weapons slightly less powerful for backstabs - with my rogue, I started out using daggers for sneak-kills, but in the end I just used my longswords, because it had the same effect - the enemy was dead. I would have preferred it if, as a rogue, I had been forced to use daggers even later in the game.

Okay, but now let's talk about the stuff that really interests me here - the knockouts. I myself had been working on a mod for that before I decided that learning Papyrus wasn't really worth it, and so I never refined it to a release-worthy level.
The idea of my mod was this: If you sneak up on an enemy and perform an Unarmed sneak attack, you knock them out - if you have the corresponding perk which I created. Very simple, yet horribly complicated once you realize that fists cannot be enchanted.
It did kind of work, however, and I bet with a bit of scripting it could be done flawlessly. And your mod looks like it has already an improved knockdown - in mine, it was impossible to loot knocked out NPCs. So I'm wondering why you haven't considered this approach? It would blend in with the rest of the game so much more smoothly.
Also, why only have the NPCs knocked out for 5 minutes? I mean, I guess it's realistic, but then it's almost always easier to just kill them. I'd prefer a number that's high enough that there's a good chance that everyone's still asleep when I leave the dungeon/building - but low enough that one of them might wake up just at the wrong moment. Something like 20 or 30 minutes, maybe a bit randomized even. (By the way, when they wake up, are they alarmed? I think they should be, probably.)

I hope I don't sound too negative, I'm always looking forward to seeing interesting approaches to stealth gameplay. But some of your design choices I can't understand. So try to take this as constructive criticism, or maybe your ideas are actually much better than mine - if so, please explain.

Ah, one more thing: Any plans for improving escape scenarios? I really think that hiding somewhere should be beneficial for a thief/assassin. I remember that I spent an entire night crouched behind a rock in Solitude while the guards were looking for me (for stealing a loaf of bread!), and they never gave up their pursuit, even when after a long, long time, the eye finally said "HIDDEN". That was very unsatisfactory.

The way I've currently implemented them is just like how in vanilla skyrim for example the ring works which allows you to eat corpses, or the blood extractor for that quest where you need to get blood off the corpses of all elf types, which is just a pop-up which appears when you activate your target. I realise that on one hand it would be cooler to just have a button to do that without getting a menu in the face, but there are 2 problems with that:

1) would require SKSE or SD
2) Too many buttons to remember. We've already got all vanilla buttons which actually already take up all buttons on an xbox controller (which some people use to play on PC as well), then there's an extra button for my dual wield parry mod (which maybe not all of you guys use, but I myself do ) and more buttons might follow later when more mods come out with extra moves (like kicks, that kind of stuff). In my opinion, such things which are required in the middle of combat should then be quickly accesible with a keyboard button, and activating the target and then choosing what you do is no problem if you're sneaking anyway and not in the middle of a fight.

Maybe I'll look into things like a player character with a low skill trying to assasinate a highly trained soldier having a chance to fail, but right now first priority for that move is just that I want to have a reliable way to assasinate people, so this is my first implementation

There are a few problems if you try to make a knockout from an unarmed sneak attack, namely:
- like you said, fists can't be enchanted
- ''apply spell on combat hit'' perks also don't seem to work for fists
- If knockouts follow from getting hit by an unarmed sneak attack instead of through activation, it means the game only ''knows'' someone's gonna get knocked out when you've already hit him. This means that at the moment of impact, the NPC is not already prepared for getting knocked out, and will for example still be able to detect crimes and therefore will report getting hit as a crime right before going unconscious. In my implementation, once the option to knock out has been chosen I already set up some preparations while the animation for the player hitting is still playing. Then once he's hit he actually falls down, and is already prepared and won't report the crime instantly. Should he walk out of reach of the animation, I just remove the preparations again after a second and nothing has happened.

5 minutes is just an unconscious time I picked initially, but that can be easily changed (actually, for testing purposes it's just 15seconds, I'm not gonna wait 5 minutes every time I'm testing )

I think there already are some mods which improve general aspects of detection/sneaking, so I think your last point would mostly fit into those mods or in a mod like Reneer's Crime Overhaul (is he still working on that by the way?) So, for now I'm really just focusing on new options. That's also how I'm treating my combat mod currently by the way, I try not to touch a single vanilla thing for the sake of compatiblity. If, in the end, I've added everything I want to/can, and there aren't any mods which change vanilla aspects in the way I like, I'll probably look at them as well, even if I don't want to Can't help it, if I run into something annoying and I've got any ideas at all of how I could mod it, I'm simply unable to play the game until I've fixed it

Love the idea. And I can move corpses just fine by holding spacebar.

Not necessarily true Borgut. In Deadly Reflex (SkyCaptain's Oblivion Mod) buttons were tied to different actions. Pressing a certain button, let's say Q, allowed:
a bash move when in combat
a impalling move when in combat and provided the enemy had been knocked down
a jumping sneak kill when sneaking and provided there was a certain distance between you and your enemy
a silent sneak kill when sneaking and provided there was a certain, smaller distance between you and your enemy

So, with SKSE and by making actions contextual you could perhaps sidestep the menus altogether and without relying on too many buttons.

For instance...

If you're sneaking, undetected and with fist up, pressing a certain button triggers knockdown. To pickpocket, you do as in Vanilla Skyrim.
If you're sneaking, undected and with dagger ready, pressing the same button as above triggers slit throat. No need to provide knockdown option in this case because by having dagger ready you are declaring that you don't want to consider non-lethal options.

So far that's it. Just one button.

Borgut, I think what I'm not getting is this: Why activate an NPC in order to kill them when you can attack them? Okay so for the knockdowns, you have a good point there - you need to prepare some stuff. But I just don't see it for the backstabbing. You're talking about extra buttons, but in this case no extra button is required.

There are two things you apparently want to do here: 1) Kill people in one hit if undetected. 2) Have the animation played instead of a normal attack.

Concerning point 1... well that's already in the game, isn't it? The only thing that seems to put you off currently is that in some situations, the damage is too low and doesn't actually kill them. So... increase damage for dagger backstabs. You can do that in the same way that the perk in the Sneak tree does it. OR what you could do is to have dagger backstabs ignore the armor rating of the NPC in addition to the usual bonuses (similar to the perk for maces). That would be a believable and balanced solution, I think. After all sneak attacks are all about finding a vulnerable AND unprotected spot.
For point 2, I don't know the numbers but my impression was that when you sneak-kill someone, 90% of the time you'll get one of the corresponding animations. This could probably increased by changing the chance of it happening or by removing the restriction that the killed enemy has to be the last hostile NPC in the area. Could also be that increasing the damage for backstabbing attacks automatically increases the chance of it happening, not sure.

Maybe I'm being the stupidest person right now for not getting why you need a menu here, but... it seems to me like there is absolutely no gain in it.

Yes, but an unconscious NPC won't act the same way as a corpse does unfortunately


Hmm yes that's right.. Maybe if SKSE with key input is out before my mod is I will just go for a seperate button immediately


At first I thought that I'd have to change the kill move currently in game already, which would make the mod partially incompatible with some real killmove mods. But I think I can just make a copy of the move and give it a higher priority.. I'll try and if it works out reliably and in all cases I'll ditch the menu for daggers

Just a quick update, I think I'll wait with a full release until after the first full Papyrus-supported SKSE version is out, and the mod will probably require SKSE (this does not mean I actually already have everything finished, it's still work in progress regardless of SKSE). The reason is that for some things like perfectly dealing with crime detection when knocking people unconscious, I will have to use huge workarounds if I wish to do them now, which will become much easier, cleaner and faster once I've got some SKSE functions. So I'll rather just wait for that while finishing things I can already do properly without workarounds.

Loving the ideas, sounds awesome.

Hey, some suggestions/comments:

Why do you need a new button for this at all? is it not possible to detect a player attacking (with animation type, if nothing else), check the weapon equipped, and assume from there? i.e. use the button currently assigned to attack, seeing as you are attacking, anyway! or you could use a dagger bash (would be nice for that as a knockout move), but that'd require having one hand empty. would be handy, having a lethal or non lethal option on the same weapon, with button combinations already in the game.
Also, instead of fists, a blackjack style weapon might be good. It'd mean people can't 1-hit kill (alright not kill, but remove) from the very start, if they manage to sneak. They'd have to make a blackjack, or get it from Thieves Guild. Perhaps a sneak skill requirement for making one? The main point is that you could run scripts on it.

With regards to dragging bodies, etc, would it be possible to kill the character who is "knocked out" and then add an effect to resurrect them in 5 mins (or longer, and I like random.) Then looting, dragging, would be fine.

I like the mask idea. Will it have conditions to ensure the player has to be hidden before removing/equipping the mask?
Slightly related, I've heard and liked an idea that guards should try to take you alive, i.e. when they kill you, you kneel, essential style, and then you're automatically dragged off to prison (with a higher bounty/sentence of course). With the mask, this would also entail them removing the mask, so if you used the same mask after serving your time, it would no longer disguise you. (obviously this can't be permanent, else that aspect of the mod is useless, but between multiple varieties of mask, and a month or so cooldown, it'd work.)

Let me know what you think. I particularly think the dagger bash would work well in not requiring buttons, etc. I think Windshear applies an effect on bash? as a point of interest.

@evilgiraffe

I could see if I can get bashing with a dagger to result in an assasination to work well yeah, will write that down.

I have thought of blackjack instead of fists for knocking out before... it might cause problems with crime detection though, because I won't know that you're trying to knock someone out until you've already hit someone, and then the person you're knocking unconscious might still be able to report you for the crime.

Killing unconscious characters and then resurrecting them would definitely make everything easier, but I've read that resurrecting dead NPCs screws their AI up, so that won't work.

Mask probably won't have conditions preventing you from removing/equipping it, but if you are detected while removing/equipping it, they'll know it's you. You'll have to make sure yourself that it's safe to remove/equip.

That was pretty much what I had in mind. Not preventing, but... discouraging. Like an axe in the face so often is.

With enough love, this mod could revolutionize the sneaking system in skyrim, making it more challanging and realistic, so keep working on it cuz i see a great potential for this mod!

Hey about the masks, is a hood going to be enough to cover your identity? That could be very useful for both dark brotherhoood and thieves guild's questlines.

Also i wanted to say, about dragging bodies, you could make it that when you sneak you move the body instead of looting it, just like with alive people were you pickpocket them instead of talking.

Not sure yet how I'm going to go about deciding which hood conceals your identity, because there's no possibility to actually determine what a hood looks like using scripts and then have script decide if it conceals your face or something fancy like that. I will have to manually assign the ability to conceal your identity to each hood which I feel should have it.

This means that I'm currently planning to just have it work for all masked hoods I can find in vanilla skyrim (masked variants of dark brotherhood hoods, nightingale cowls, etc) and probably include a short description for how other modders can make their newly added hoods from their masks have this property (and maybe make such patches myself for hood mods which I personally really like and use myself )

Are you going to modify the detection system? if so, i recommend that you should be instantly detected when they are looking at you and there is no darkness to hide you, and also i dont find it normal that when you shoot someone in the head with an arrow (and they somehow survive) and they dont find you they say "i must have been hearing things".Also, i dont find realistic that when you draw your weapons while suppossedly trying to sneak the enemies dont know youre there even though it sounds like SSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!, so maybe you could replace the standard with a more steathy one.

Look at games you sneak in a lot and base it off those.. Such as Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell, etc..

Currently not planning that kinda stuff, I think there are already some other mods trying to solve this kind of problems. For now, I'm just planning new actions/options you have available in the sneaking gameplay, not overhauling the existing parts.

Here is an idea..

What if you make a lesser power that would activate a mode where you knock people out..
If you want to do that then activate it and if you want to pickpocket don't