@ Kobal

Sorry for the delayed response on some of your questions that I meant to address earlier:

There is a fairly straight forward curve as you go from clothes to light to heavy armors at the default noise levels and default encumbrance values for all the gear. If other mods change the gear encumbrance values, that could impact effectiveness. You do have a point when it comes to reducing the penalties based on skill, so I am going to implement an option to set the effectiveness of those skill reductions (which would apply towards the main gear related skills) and an option to also apply the penalties against the sneak skill if you want to make things even tougher in Sneak mode.

Two things:
1. The Lich's sneak skill seems unnaturally high. That implies that there is some other mod that is changing the sneak skill values of NPCs, and that is going to alter how SDR works in relation to how it is designed.
2. The cap is the effective limit of the Sneak skill when applied to the detection formula. So 112 = 100 when applied in the script.


That still seems strange to me. I'd love to see a screenshot. Although I am having to redo the whole formula anyway due to the new movement rate multiplier features I'm swapping in.

Some examples how my ideal setup for sound detection looks like.:
-as novice it is almost impossible to get up to melee range to anyone
-an apprentice-journeyman can sneak walk past most things in clothes
-a journeyman can sneak run in light armor against the dumber creatures (skill < 25)
-an expert can sneak run past everyone in clothes
-A master can sneak run in light armor past everyone
-Running in Heavy Armor is always detected, unless you are master and the detector is a moron in sneaking
-Walking in heavy armor is detected either, if the detector has a high enough skill
-Sneaking in heavy armor with a skill less than 50 is detected by anyone.

Not a bad goal list. I'll keep that in mind when I'm beta testing the new stuff.

I wouldn't say that moving soundless is possible, at least not at the speed you are sneaking in Oblivion. You might move quiet enough for a human to not notice, but some sound is always there. And it depends on the ground, too. In Oblivion this doesn't factor in, but I wouldn't go with the assumption that you are on the most forgiving one. Especially in most outdoor areas you have to move very slow and ?be good to not get heard, even without armor.

I would *LOVE* to factor in terrain, but according to the CS wiki, it's impossible for NPCs to "know" if they are grass vs. being on a road. Perhaps there is some otherway of figuring it out, but in all honesty, that would probably add too much processing load. Anyway, with the next version, you should have all the settings you need to properly tweak everything to taste.

Regarding the weapon noise, you are probably right that they don't make much, however I think the sneaking itself is going to be more difficult with a weapon drawn and the penalty should reflect that.

That is entirely up to you, and thus the .ini settings.

There is something interesting with skills on creatures. They are set in three different "batches", so in the editor a creature's 'Sneak Skill' is the value of its sneak, speechcraft, light armor, and all other sneaky skills minus marksman, which is replaced by H2H AFAIK
If they have the PCLevelOffset flag (like the lich does), the value in the editor is the base, and scales with level, though I don't know what formula it follows. The odd thing is they can go over 100 for creatures only, which is pretty lethal when an uncapper mod is used. I've had minotaur lords wielding warhammers with 140+ blunt skill.
Other trivia is that armor rating on creatures also ignores the fMaxArmorRating setting, so you can make creatures immune to physical damage with a 100+ shield effect.

Level based creatures get 2 skill points per level in each category, but it's strange that they have not the same cap as NPCs. But I don't think the maxarmorrating setting is ignored, too. The balrog from Midas Magic has 100% fireshield and I can still damage it with regular attacks.

You can't use getAV sneak to determine if a cap is active, because the cap only applies to detection. You have to do a "tdt"/"tds" command to see how everything is being processed when it comes to your character being detected by a specific actor. However, that won't help you with SDR, that's only providing vanilla numbers.

edit / update:
I'm slowly working on the next version. I've implemented the optional Chameleon cap so far, as well as revisions to how much skills can offset sound penalties when it comes to gear. It's fairly well spelled out, and I've changed the default max reductions, along with the option to disable them entirely. Sneak skill has its own separate reduction settings, so you can give/remove more weight to Sneak over the other skills if you are inclined, but the Sneak adjustments will only apply when in Sneak mode. That combined with the new movement rate multiplier feature should provide a very solid range of options to tweak everything to everyone's liking.

Did you indeed make headless zombies blind and deaf now? They don't seem to notice anything.

Nope, but then they don't have very high Sneak skills in the first place as I recall. (And rightfully so)

Just found a rather critical error. (yikes) I had created a custom function in the OBSE plugin for calculating effective sneak skills (adjusted for luck). When I first tested it, it seemed to work fine, but apparently it didn't. In my latest tests, a lot of folks were returning 0 values for effective sneak skills. I pulled the custom function from the OBSE plugin and put the formula into the script, and it seems to be working fine now. This will have a definite impact. (ugh) Sorry folks. I need to do some more testing, but I should have a beta ready with all the new fixes and features available sometime today.

Oh man, I so totally lied. I had it in my brain that it was on my list of things to do, but I guess I had already done it. Anything that has no head will return with 0 for audio and 0 for visual, thus forcing them to rely entirely on skill. However, I think I'm going to make that an option, rather than force it. Default will have it turned on.

Edit: New version is slowly coming together. Programming is finished, now it's just a matter of finding and squashing bugs.

Edit2: Squashed some more bugs. Where in the world are they all coming from!!! Some of them are issues that folks have raised before and that I've dismissed, but I can't tell if they were legitimate, or if I broke it when I made all the changes. Anyway, here's a general apology to everyone who reported a problem that was indeed a problem and felt I dismissed them. Hopefully, this next one should be solid. I'm going to do lots of testing with more verbose debugging options, and then some beta testing before this releases. I'm throwing in the towel for tonight though.
(man, I wish I could complete override Oblvions detection tds output with my own. It'd make debugging things a helluva lot easier!!!)

Did you remove the option to disable sound penalties altogether?

Nope. Just set the sound multiplier to 0.

gotcha.

I have a new beta version ready for testing, available on TES Nexus in the optional files section:
http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385
PLEASE UNINSTALL THE OLD ONE, then clean save before installing the new one.
Back up your old ini file for reference, since MOST of the settings are the same, but there are enough differences that justify an uninstall of the old one.

4.2.0 includes the following changes:

Also, I have been playing with HUD Status Bars, and have my own personal recommendation for how to use the Sneak Icon with SDR.
- The sneak icon is relocated to the bottom part of the screen, about 20% in from the left
- The sneak icon fades/solidifies depending on how much light is hitting you
- It provides no indicator of whether or not you are being detected
Code follows (replace the sneak icon code in the Hud Status Bars.ini):

I worked really hard on each aspect of the revised formulas and expanded the debugging features to verify that all the different elements were working. I've streamlined them a bit, but have also added more flexibility on the .ini side to customize everything to taste. I *think* everything is working, but I would like some folks to beta test it and give me some feedback before I officially release it. Performance seemed to be decent, and that was with a fully loaded Oblivion with all kinds of mods.

I have *not* updated the SDR .ini guide yet, but all the new stuff is fairly well documented in the .ini.

Let me know how it goes. Bug reports, .ini settings suggestions are welcome, just keep in mind that any suggestions you make should take into account a default vanilla scenario, as well as your load order.

I am having some trouble with this new version. In all tests but one I did not get any movement sound penalty at all while sneaking.

I'll be sure to test out the player fade. (that makes me giddy )


Kobal, you didn't happen to have the sound penalty disabled did you?

That's not enough for me to go on, because I am pretty darn sure it works. I need more information - screen shots, what you were wearing, sneak skill, sneak skill of target. Use the the expanded debugger options to show exactly how sound is breaking down when you are sneaking around. It's towards the end of the .ini file. And also, it can be tricky to capture it. The best thing is to have the "tdt" active so you can see what is happening live. Otherwise, if you lift your fingers off the keyboard to go into console mode, in that brief instant your character stops moving, so by the time you hit the console button, your movement penalty will have dropped to 0, and the cycles happen so fast that it may be 0 enough times in a row that nothing seems to be happening.

Ok, it works. It was because the OBSE plugin has changed and it again wasn't replaced by Wrye Bash. Needed to copy the new one manually.
Nice that you have changed some things about the offsets. Is it only for gear or did you consider the others (base sound penalty and falling) as well?

Glad it works! After my post, I had a feeling it might be the plugin - which version of wrye bash are you using, because it should have uninstalled it properly.

The changes were only for gear. Base sound and falling are handled separately. You may want to consider the flat option for the base sound penalty (skills are ignored).

Falling is just a bump based on other factors that I don't entirely recall, but one of which is seconds in the air.

It would be cool if someone manage to do Wizard for Wrye Bash or script for OBMM, as there are many things in the ini, but it's not really necessary.

I'm not really sure what you mean. There is the main .esp, and you can pick one or none of two optional .esps. Does that really need to be scripted? Or are you suggesting scripting the .ini settings?

Either way, I don't have the time or inclination to do it. If someone else does, I'd be happy to incorporate it and give them credit.

Just double checked. The landing/splash penalty is a flat bump, modified by the number of seconds you were airborne before you land. There are no adjustments for weight, gear, or skills of any kind.

Bash has an "INI Edits" feature. Is this usable on mod ini files? If so, presets could be supplied for that.

Yes, it is possible to have ini tweaks for mods. I ran into that with the All Natural installation (as I recall).

Another option is an in-game interactive menu that would allow you to change settings while playing the game. However, again it's more work than I have time or desire to pursue.

There is a really good chance that my next release will be the last. I'm nearing the one year anniversary of my first post/official release, and it's time to move on to other things. At that point, I'll "lock" it, and then folks can feel free to come up with scripts or add-ons without fear the mod will be changing any.

I wasn't suggesting you do it, especially not an in game thing. I was just responding to the wizard question about why it was likely unnecessary. Maybe Tescosi could have pages with example ini tweaks for various mods in various combinations from the people who use them.

I do appreciate all the work you've already done, it's going to make my next playthough far more fun. Thank you

Some feedback regarding the new beta: I have not tried out every feature, but so far everything seems to work as intented.
I am back at default light settings now. Don't know if there is a difference between Cava Obscura and Let There Be Darkness, but any increase in the light settings seemed unnecessary to me after all.
I even decreased the short range LOS bump. It also seemed to me that it is not affected by chameleon. Actually it wouldn't be unrealistic not to be spotted in complete darkness whith 80% chameleon while not moving. I am often unable to see a faided wrath in a halfway dark room even when I know it is there. I think any visual bumps should be affected by chameleon the same way it works normally.

Regarding sound, I noticed that despite the reduced offsets, sneaking at high skill levels was even easier than before. Any idea why? I started out with the same sound settings I was using in the previous version, but found that I needed to increase the new movement setting by 50% in addition to that to get about the same penalty at master level as before. This was only possible because I followed your advice and switched to the flat sound penalty, which is lower in the beginning, otherwise low level sneaking would have become impossible.
For reference, here are the settings I used.

@ Kobal
It's good to hear that it's functioning. As for it being easier to sneak at higher levels than before with the default settings, that could be due to a number of things.
1. The formula has changed significantly due to the new method for calculating the movement rate penalty, so that will tweak everything. When creating these formulas, in all honesty, it can be a bit of a shot in the dark in terms of how playable the default ini values are. Especially since the only testing I did was to make sure the calculations were working.
2. In the previous version, some of the calculations were not working as designed because I was unaware of a drawback of the AddActorValue plugin - it doesn't store fractions. So if there was supposed to be some penalty that was added/reduced by .67, it would flatten it to 0. Not at all what I had in mind. Most of my AAV tokens did not store fractions, but the ones that did were movment related. I compensated for that by multiply those values by 100 for storage, and then dividing by 100 when processing in the formula.
3. There were a number of other bug fixes, especially with the calculation of skills / armor / noise that were not calculating correctly. So although the previous .ini settings "worked", now that everything is functioning correctly, the default settings might very well be more effective than before.

I haven't had a whole lot of time to play, and won't until I wrap up some projects, so I'm hoping you and other folks trying out the beta will continue to provide feedback like this so I know which areas to investigate when I have time to do more solid testing. My biggest concern is that the formulas are working and values are popping up.

Unless you have the settings where you like them now, one thing you may want to consider is reducing the effectiveness of the non-sneak skills vs. the sneak skill. Right now the settings you have put them at equal weight when it comes to reducing noise.

I hope other beta users will also post their .ini settings when they have a "settled" sneaking routine. It's extremely helpful to me.

My goal is simple, if you try to sneak in line of sight, unless it's very dark and/or you have a lot of Chameleon going for you, you should get spotted nearly every time if you get too close, even at very high skill levels. If you are not in line of sight and take basic precautions (cloth or light armor, moving slowly, etc), you should be able to sneak up on most people, and at very high levels even sneaking around in full heavy armor is not impossible against opponents with low sneak levels.

Once you learn how sneaking with my system works you will find yourself following certain routines: sticking to the shadows, only moving when you are not in line of sight, moving when the enemy is moving or engaged in conversation and thus distracted. Mods that change lighting and hand out torches will also have an impact. An actor holding a torch will have a lot more trouble spotting you at a distance because of the difference in light, but up close you'd be sunk.

However, if you are jumping up and down in full metal armor, and you are right behind someone, and they don't notice you, or similar scenarios that would naturally make a lot of noise and draw attention, something is wrong, and either the ini needs to be tweaked or my formulas do. (I'm hoping the .ini, cause I'd prefer not to muck with the formulas at this point)

Hope that helps.

Happy sneaking!