[Relz] Sneaking Detection Recalibrated (#8) : IV - Oblivion

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:06 pm

kudos for the awesome mod saebel! this basically obsoletes many great mods, which says a lot about the work you've done

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:04 pm

Thanks! It was one heckuva beast, but I had a lot of help, especially from JRoush who cracked the Oblivion.exe and hooked the detection formula for me. Without his help, SDR wouldn't be much better than the others.

Oh, and TES Nexus relocated/renamed all Oblivion mods to a new location, but didn't provide any forwarding options, so if anyone is looking for it, you can find it here:
http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385

And don't forget to vote for File Of The Month! I've got a pretty solid lead, but you can never know when the next BBB mod gets released, and then it's all over.

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:57 am

good point, I can't stand by while ginormous boobs invade Tamriel. voted for! :banana:

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:27 am

Very very nice, looking forward to the new version. I hope it's less resource intensive than version 4.4.1. Although that was expected given that NPCs are now given a brain.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:27 am

Yes. The next version actually merges NPC Behavior into the Core esp. That means halving the number of tokens, token distribution systems, and scripting associated with them, as well as delay timers on NPCs casting detection magic which will reduce some of the overhead on that as well. I don't have a heavily modded set up, but even with a 100 ft detect life hood being worn, and about six to seven NPCs within the radius of the effect, I was pulling 45 + fps (without OSR). Can't be sure what it will be like in heavier load orders.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:26 pm

set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Tabaxi" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight (RBP; covers all the other Khajiit races)

I forgot to mention that for races, you don't need the model path, just the actual race name. Model paths are only required for "creatures".

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:33 am

Version 4.5.0 is up:
Oblivion Nexus: http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=37385
TES Alliance: http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/893-sdr-sneaking-detection-recalibrated/

Changes:
4.5.0 - April 26, 2012

This update addresses a number of issues, minor bugs, small performance boosts, as well as merges the SDR NPC Behavior .esp mod into the SDR Core .esp.

General scope changes:

Merged NPC Behavior.esp into SDR Core.esp.
Revised the .ini Guide to be easier to read in terms of spacing, table of contents, and feature headers.

Changes to SDR Core .esp.

Removed the two SDR actor values from the menu that shows your adventuring stats.
Fixed an issue where selecting a specific NPC was not showing filtered debug data.
Added frame counter to delay actors from doing anything for three frames when going from disabled to enabled. This will hopefully prevent a rare crash occurence when determining line of sight.
Added a delayer option for casting detection magic (night eye/detect life). The delayer starts when the NPC token is first added, and resets itself after each attempt to cast, or whenever the current night eye/detect life effects end. So you would get a delay of x seconds between when the detect life effect ends and the next attempt to cast.
Regardless of detection level against the player (0-3), if the detector is in combat with the player, and the player is not in line of sight, they are clear to cast the detection spell (after the delay, if any).
If the detection level against the player is > 0, the detector is clear to attempt to cast.
Detectors will not attempt to cast if their disposition towards the player is greater than their aggression, if they have invisibility active, or are in the midst of casting another spell.
Minor changes to initialization messages, with option for verbose list of active features of both the Core and Perks and Patches printed to the console on startup.
Changed the auto-collision feature to be disabled if the detector is in a deep sleep (GetSleeping = 3)
Added break points to prevent the advanced formulas and scripts from firing when either the detector or the target was disabled.
Removed debugging for drawing/sheathing weapons, as you can see the effects during the standard detection debugging process.
Modified the non-line-of-sight moving light sources calculations. Detectors were picking up moving light sources, even though they were on the other side of a wall because they were within the "radius" and did not have "line-of-sight". So I added the requirement that the target has to have line of sight of the detector. It's not ideal, but the alternative is worse, and there is no method I am aware of to pick two points and determine what and what kind of obstructions are in the way between them.
Added "sneaking" tag to debug of player's movement type.
Fixed issue where SDR was not consistenty or accurately grabbing jumping/landing air time and penalties.
Revised how the mesh folder that holds the Skeleton.nif is calculated to allow any creature from any mod to be added to the Peripheral / Night Eye / Twilight vision lists.

Changes to SDR Perks and Patches .esps

Added same Journeyman Sneak perk of bypassing basic pressure plate traps and tripwires that was in Perks and Patches for Oblivion to the Perks and Patches for Nerhim.
Fixed description of Journeyman Sneak perk if Detection Package is > 0, applied fix to both Perks and Patches .esps.
Fixed compatibility issues with Bare Necessities (Ob only) and Real Sleep Extended (Ob and Nehrim).

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:04 am

Congo rats on perhaps the final version of SDR Sabel :foodndrink:

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:26 pm

I forgot to mention that for races, you don't need the model path, just the actual race name. Model paths are only required for "creatures".

There you go making things all confusing and stuff. I tell ya.

Okay, so my revised list would be:

set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Sea Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph

set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Hidden Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight (RBP)
set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Sea Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight (RBP)

set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Cathay-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight (RBP)
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Suthay-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight (RBP)

I think RBP adds a couple more elven and Khajiit subraces, but they're not listed in the readme. I'll have to check in game and get back to you.

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:22 pm

There you go making things all confusing and stuff. I tell ya. :tongue:

Okay, so my revised list would be:

set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Sea Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph

set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Hidden Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight (RBP)
set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Sea Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight (RBP)

set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Cathay-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight (RBP)
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Suthay-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight (RBP)

I think RBP adds a couple more elven and Khajiit subraces, but they're not listed in the readme. I'll have to check in game and get back to you.

I didn't *want* to make it all confusing, but there are only two skeleton.nifs for all the races, one for beastie types with tails, and one for the rest, so race name "GetRace" works in this case. Cathay-raht and Suthay-raht aren't part of RBP, but Ohmes and Ohmes-raht are, and I already included them as part of the default .ini (because RBP is one of the more popular mods)

I actually built in the suggestions you made before into the .ini file, but separated them out with headers. So this is the format I'll most likely be going with. If more races/creatures are going to be added to the lists, it will be important to note which mods they hail from, so that I can supply links and references. It's entirely possible that there could be a conflict if two different mods with two different model paths have a folder with the same name, but there's not much I can do about that.

Here is an example excerpted from the new .ini:

Spoiler

; ==================================================================
; >> SDR (VISUAL) - Vision Types per Race/Creature <<
; ------------------------------------------------------------------
; DEFAULT VALUES
; If a race/creature does not have Peripheral Vision, it will be
; assigned centralized (default) vision. If a race/creature is not
; assigned Twilight or Night vision, it will be assigned Day vision.
; To add a creature/race, copy and paste a line in the appropriate
; section and change the name. To disable a creature race, put a ";"
; in front of the desired line item.

; ------------------------------------------------------------------
; PERIPHERAL Vision List - by Race
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "{start}"
; Oblvion
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Breton" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Dark Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|High Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Imperial" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Nord" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Orc" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Redguard" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Vampire Race" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Wood Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
; Shivering Isles
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Dark Seducer" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Golden Saint" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Sheogorath" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
; Race Balancing Project
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Aureal" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Dremora" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Hidden Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Mazken" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Sea Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Daedra Seducer" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Xivilai" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
; Replace "Other Race" with the race name and uncomment it by removing the ';'
; set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Other Race" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|{end}" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph

; PERIPHERAL Vision List - by Creature
; ------------------------------------------------------------------
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "{start}"
; Oblvion
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Goblin" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Imp" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Lich" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Minotaur" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Ogre" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Scamp" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Skeleton" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|SpiderDaedra" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Spriggan" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Troll" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Xivilai" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Zombie" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
; Shivering Isles
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|FleshAtronach" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|GateKeeper" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Grummite" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|Jyggylag" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
; Replace "OtherCreature" with the creature name and uncomment it by removing the ';'
; set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|OtherCreature" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph
set sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph to sv_Construct "%z|{end}" sdrIniQ.vVLCPeriph

; ------------------------------------------------------------------
; TWILIGHT Vision List - by Race
set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "{start}"
; Oblvion
set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Dark Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight
; Race Balancing Project
set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Sea Elf" sdrIniQ.vVLRPeriph
; Replace "Other Race" with the race name and uncomment it by removing the ';'
; set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Other Race" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|{end}" sdrIniQ.vVLRTwilight

; ------------------------------------------------------------------
; TWILIGHT Vision List - by Creature
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "{start}"
; Oblvion
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Deer" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Horse" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Minotaur" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Sheep" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|SlaughterFish" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Troll" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
; Shivering Isles
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Baliwog" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|Grummite" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|MurkDweller" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
; Replace "OtherCreature" with the creature name and uncomment it by removing the ';'
; set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|OtherCreature" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight to sv_Construct "%z|{end}" sdrIniQ.vVLCTwilight

; ------------------------------------------------------------------
; NIGHT Vision List - by Race
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "{start}"
; Oblvion
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
; Race Balancing Project
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Ohmes" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Ohmes-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Tabaxi" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
; Replace "Other Race" with the race name and uncomment it by removing the ';'
; set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Other Race" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|{end}" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight

; ------------------------------------------------------------------
; NIGHT Vision List - by Creature
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "{start}"
; Oblvion
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|Bear" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|Dog" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|MountainLion" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
; MMM / OOO
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|Bat" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|Werewolf" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|Pahmer" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
; Replace "OtherCreature" with the creature name and uncomment it by removing the ';'
; set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|OtherCreature" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLCNight to sv_Construct "%z|{end}" sdrIniQ.vVLCNight

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:13 pm

I have tried the new version and at first everything seemed good, but then I changed the ini and the issue came up again. I went through all settings to figure out what caused it and it started to happen after I had set the sound and skill effect of invisibility to 0. Sound had only been 20 to begin with, so I paid more attention to skill and noticed that skill fluctuated greatly, dependent on how far away I was from the detector. It went from negative numbers(does that mean their ability to detect me is reduced?) to about 30 when they were right next to me. Setting skill effect of invisibility to 30 prevented them from automatically detecting me when getting close. Now the question was whether it was only the skill or if they were getting some other bonus and skill just pushed it over the edge. I changed invisibility skill setting back to 0 and lowered the skill category in the detection formula from .5 to .2. Suddenly I was able to run next to them without being detected, where they previously noticed me from 2 meters distance while walking. So it was indeed the skill that caused this huge difference.
Two questions:
1. Why is impact of skill so strongly dependent on distance? Shouldn't it be always the same?
2. Why does it become so high close up that actors are able to detect me without any sight or sound factors involved by their skill alone?

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:21 am

Skill is basically a "spidey sense". Have you ever had that feeling that someone was watching you, or that someone was behind you, even though you haven't seen or heard anything that would prove otherwise? How does one pick out a potential pick pocket in a crowd? How does one blend in to a crowd so as to be less noticeable? That's all skill related in my book.

While sight and sound can't be less that 0, since 0 represents absolute quiet or completely blind or blocked vision, the skill vs. skill check is a different beast, and can lead to values less than 0 for those that are super sneaky against those that just aren't. It takes a thief to catch a thief as they say.

As for why distance is a factor, I think it makes sense to me, unless you consider Sneak skill to be an unlimited telepathic omnicient sort of ability. If I stand still, I am much more likely to sense someone is behind me if they are only a foot or two away vs someone who is ten or twenty feet away. Try closing your eyes some time, and you can actually sense how near objects are because of the change in spacial distance and air pressure. Same thing applies towards spotting someone suspicious. All things being equal, you are more likely to catch someone trying to pick someone's pocket at ten feet than you would at one hundred feet. Because even though you might notice them, you might not notice what they are doing. Let's say you are at a doorway picking a lock, a city guard and a barkeep are having a conversation, and are both the same distance away from you. Everything else being the same, the guard might detect you, but the barkeep wouldn't because at that distance his Sneak skill isn't high enough, but the giard has better training, so he might catch you.

Anyway, that's the drift of it. And yes, with the ini settings you picked, the results make more sense.

Hope that helps.

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:12 pm

Well, I don't want to argue about our understandings of what skill does, but don't you find that either the formula or the default ini value for the skill category are very strangely chosen when enemies can detect my invisible and not moving character by skill alone, despite my skill being higher than theirs?
And that did not happen in previous versions when I did my tests to figure out my ini settings, so what did you change in the meantime? Or is there something wrong in my game?

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 pm

I don't really know the best way to answer that. There have been many changes over the last year, maybe the answer lies in the change log? I tried to keep as accurate a record as I could. I would also need two points of reference: The version that you liked and the version that you want me to compare it to. Then I'd have dump the scripts out of both and run side by side comparisons.

All I can say is that in my game, the default settings work great for me. Invisibilty is no longer a 100% free pass, and if you get too close, even if you have a higher sneak skill, there is still a chance of being detected. Especially if you are within short/collision range. Gone are the days when you can sneak and bump past goblins without them noticing you, or sneak right up to a guard in broad day light.

But that's what the ini settings are for. If you want invisibility to have more impact on skill, crank it up to 100, and the skill factor will be effectively nullified when you are invisible.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:29 am

Is the "beta" version of 4.5.0 you linked a page back the same as the one you just posted on the nexus today?

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:34 am

It is not the same. There are a couple of tweaks and bug fixes in the official that are not in the beta.

edit: you *might* be able to use the same ini file for the 4.5.0 beta if you already tweaked it.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:32 am

Thanx mucho for the big 4.5.0, saebel. :thumbsup:

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:30 pm

It is not the same. There are a couple of tweaks and bug fixes in the official that are not in the beta.

edit: you *might* be able to use the same ini file for the 4.5.0 beta if you already tweaked it.

Thank you. I don't make too many tweaks, I adjust SDR for use with Cava Obscura, and turn of sprinting. I haven't even touched oblivion since Skyrim released, I haven;t even been keeping track of any mods, but it is nice to see that you continued to improve SDR.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:02 am

I didn't *want* to make it all confusing, but there are only two skeleton.nifs for all the races, one for beastie types with tails, and one for the rest, so race name "GetRace" works in this case.

Relax, I'm just giving you a hard time.

Cathay-raht and Suthay-raht aren't part of RBP, but Ohmes and Ohmes-raht are, and I already included them as part of the default .ini (because RBP is one of the more popular mods)

Oh. They must be from Elsweyr Anequina, then. The EA readme doesn't mention anything about adding new races... odd. That might explain why I have Khajiit Ohmes/Ohmes-raht, and straight Ohmes/Ohmes-raht.

Anyway, I went through my list, and here's what I have:

set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Cathay" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Cathay-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Ohmes" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Ohmes-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Suthay" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Suthay-raht" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight
set sdrIniQ.vVLRNight to sv_Construct "%z|Khajiit Tojay" sdrIniQ.vVLRNight

There are three versions of Ohmes - tattooed, furred, and non-furred, but I don't know if that makes any difference.

There's no "Tabaxi" race in RBP - that's just the folder name. bg2048 adapted the Ohmes from Luchaire's Tabaxi; it's different enough that you can still use the original race.

Skill is basically a "spidey sense". Have you ever had that feeling that someone was watching you, or that someone was behind you, even though you haven't seen or heard anything that would prove otherwise? How does one pick out a potential pick pocket in a crowd? How does one blend in to a crowd so as to be less noticeable? That's all skill related in my book.

It is, and it isn't. Humans have the ability to sense when someone/something is watching them - I believe it's a very old instinct, from back in the days when we weren't at the top of the food chain. Knowing when something was eyeing you as a possible snack was a good survival trait. These days, it's obviously not as important, but it's still there. Try it yourself - look at someone for a few seconds. 90% of the time, they'll notice and look back at you.

That part is instinct, but it can be honed with training. People who are/have been in dangerous situations where others are trying to do them grievous bodily harm (soldiers, cops, criminals, spies, etc.) have a more developed sense. Maybe they can focus their attention a little more keenly; maybe they unconsciously notice things in the environment around them; maybe they're just psychic, or a little of all three. In any case, they can sense someone watching a lot more quickly.

So basically, I'm agreeing with you. Even a hunter who's perfectly camouflaged knows not to watch his prey directly - the prey will sense it, even if it can't see him. The same principle applies if you're invisible but watching someone - the target can't *see* you, but it knows you're there, somewhere, because it can *sense* you.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:25 am

look at someone for a few seconds. 90% of the time, they'll notice and look back at you.

That usually only happens if you are somewhere in their field of view and/or they already know you are there. I have yet to see someone who turns around just because someone is looking at his backside. This

maybe they unconsciously notice things in the environment around them

sounds most reasonable, but it still requires those "things" to be noticed to actually be present. They are represented in the game through the sound and sight category, and if those are at 0 they should not be able to detect you by the power of their skill alone. If the mod now works like this by default that should be explicitly mentioned in the description in big red letters because it is not to be expected that at the default settings all enemies with above average sneak skill have a sensing power that accounts for more in the detection formula than the sound you make. I spent some good hours trying to figure out what this behaviour that seemed very strange to me derived from. I expected the detectors skill to only be a subtle difference that only becomes decicive if you are already close to being detected by the other factors and until recently it always seemed to be that way. I am surprised that saebel cannot recall whether he changed something about it because it's a rather important change. After all, every leveled creature is going to reach a sneak skill where it will become impossible to get in a melee sneak attack if the particular ini setting isn't lowered, and it's not obvious at all what's responsible for that.

If you want invisibility to have more impact on skill, crank it up to 100

Actually invisiblity was pretty secure be default, because it did already nullify the skill factor. I wanted to change that because it seemed too easy but the result turned out to be more extreme than expected for the reason we are discussing here. :tongue:

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:22 pm

Oblivion's default detection formula treats skill the same way I do. It's one of the few things I kept. It's handled separately and in addition to the sight and sound category, there are just more factors involved in SDR. Some of the skill subfactors do require line of sight.

I have made a lot of changes over the last 14 months since I started the project, the formulas are very complicated, and there are other things that I do in my life that are more important to remember than a specific change from one version to the next, which is why I document them to the best of my ability in the change log.

If you really want to understand what is going on, use TES4 Edit or the construction set and take a look at the formulas directly. I have always encouraged people to do so.

And personally, I have absolutely experienced those moments where I had a weird feeling someone behind me was looking at me, turned around, and sure enough they were, with no other obvious visual or audial cues to tell me otherwise.

Of the three key factors of sight / skill / sound, skill has the least amount of impact (just look at the multiplier). Your sneak skill has an impact on sound factor by offsetting how much noise you make. It has no impact on sight (if I recall).

The further away from someone you are, the more effective your sneak skill is (if you are the one sneaking), and the less effective theirs is. The closer you get to them, it starts to swing the other way.

There is no doubt that it is very very challenging, but that is the point. I have yet to come across anyone where it was impossible to sneak up on them. In some cases, sneaking up on someone requires a significantly higher sneak skill, so at a lower level you just can't do it. Makes total sense to me. That's the equivalent of a first level fighter going after a minotaur, or a first level thief trying to pick pocket a city guard. Don't even bother trying, because you aren't good enough.

Whenever I test out SDR before releasing, I go through the entire assassination guild quest line and make sure that it is possible to complete each sub-quest undetected. It might take several tries, but as long as it is possible, then I know that the fundamentals are working. And when I do get caught, it's usually either dumb luck because they happened turn my direction when wandering around and spotted me, or I made a mistake and gave myself away. And that's the way it should be.

» Fri May 04, 2012 5:30 pm

That usually only happens if you are somewhere in their field of view and/or they already know you are there. I have yet to see someone who turns around just because someone is looking at his backside.

I do it all the time. But then, I'm a little psychic, plus I'm a combat vet. I don't get "feelings" when people are watching me; it's completely unconscious - I just turn to look. I was at a local bar one time, watching a band play, and there were a bunch of women at the table behind me (as in, completely out of my LOS). I kept turning to see one of them looking at me - twice. The third time, she and the girl next to her were both staring at me, quite deliberately, like they couldn't figure out exactly how I was doing it.

...because it is not to be expected that at the default settings all enemies with above average sneak skill have a sensing power that accounts for more in the detection formula than the sound you make. I spent some good hours trying to figure out what this behaviour that seemed very strange to me derived from. I expected the detectors skill to only be a subtle difference that only becomes decicive if you are already close to being detected by the other factors and until recently it always seemed to be that way.

No, I wouldn't say that *all* enemies above average sneak would be able to pinpoint your location. Sense your presence and go on alert, sure. To my mind, it's one of those indefinable random factors - goblin A happens to be half-asleep or drunk or busy sharpening his knife, goblin B is yakking on about that deer that got away during yesterday's hunt, but goblin C... he's wary, paying attention, and he feels something odd. Maybe he smelled something; maybe he felt the wind stir, or saw a cobweb move; maybe he's just psychic... but he thinks there's something out there, so he goes to take a look. Maybe he completely misses that adventurer who's crept into the caves to slit all their throats; maybe he accidentally bumps into the unlucky schmuck and all hell breaks loose. It would be cool if Saebel could add some random factor into the detection algorithms, but I don't know if it's practical or possible.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:31 am

There are already so many factors built in, that you might as well call it random. Two goblins right next to each other with the same sneak skill could have completely different chances of detecting you, depending on the direction they are facing, where you fall within their angle if view, how much light is hitting them (one could be in slightly more shadow than the other), whether either of them is moving or turning in place.

I am extremely hesitant to throw in a random factor at this point, even as an option turned off by default. However, if SDR ever breaks 200 endorsemants, I'll consider it.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:45 am

I do it all the time

Ok, I believe you. But having a large number of opponents be that way would be annoying, for me at least. :tongue:

Playing thieves arsenal missions with OOO I sometimes need to get past them very closely and cannot afford being sensed. :biggrin:

But I now got the ini right for my taste, so nevermind.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:45 am

It's official!!! SDR is the Oblivion Nexus FILE OF THE MONTH for April, 2012!!

I want to thank everyone for all of the support, feedback and overall appreciation that I have gotten for this mod, and I am glad that everyone seems to be really enjoying it.

Now it's time to take a break from modding, and go make a movie.