[Relz] Sneaking Detection Recalibrated #6 : IV - Oblivion

» Wed May 09, 2012 1:54 am

Thanks Saebel, I have been running the game for a few more hours since setting the above, its one beautiful setup now

So while we are waiting for the Reclaiming Sancre Tor update, going to have a bit of a diversion with the Thieves line of quests, and pick up Vilja to take along for the adventure. Something I have wanted to get around to since Emma experienced that line of quests and made adjustments / dialogue specifically for Vilja's integration. On completion I can then leave Vilja at home for the RST experience.

So SDR is going to get a good run over the next week. Kind of glad Skyrim came along, I have been able to enjoy Oblivion a lot more since, SDR being perfected has put the cherry on top. Thank you.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:26 pm

I cannot find the chameleon and blindness curve settings in the new ini. Where have they gone?

» Tue May 08, 2012 9:45 pm

I cannot find the chameleon and blindness curve settings in the new ini. Where have they gone?

They are gone for a few reasons:
- AV Uncapper is no longer required for SDR, and those settings only applied if AV Uncapper is installed.
- It turns out Blindness isn't used by anything in the game except for the blind moth monks, as far as I could see at any rate. There are no spells, diseases, poisons, etc. that cause/ remove blindess. And unlike invisibility or chameleon at 100+, blindness only impacts sight, so you are still detectable. So curving it seemed unimportant.
- Chameleon values of over 100 used to be so ridiculously deadly that you needed AV Uncapper to make sure you never got that high. The new SDR OBSE plug-in allows you to set how effective Chameleon (and Invisibility) is against detection in three different areas (sight/sound/skill), so Chameleon (and Invisibility) may be 100% effective in the sight category, but not necessarily in sound or skill, which means Invisibility/Chameleon at 100+ is no longer a full proof method to escape detection (though it certainly helps!). So you can control the impact of Chameleon through the new settings.

If you still like the curved effects, AV Uncapper comes with it's own .esp where you can modify all the settings for the Uncapper plugin. Note that the effects will be cumulative in such cases, where first your chameleon would be curved/capped by AV Uncapper, and then it's effectiveness limited by SDR, so you may want to tweak settings accordingly.

I play with AV Uncapper, but I no longer bother to curve down the effects of blindness, chameleon, or uncapping sneak detection limit (since SDR has its own settings for that as well).

hope that helps.

edit: I thought this was a really good question, and have added it to the http://saebel.net/sdrQA.php section of the SDR website.

» Wed May 09, 2012 5:22 am

- It turns out Blindness isn't used by anything in the game except for the blind moth monks, as far as I could see at any rate. There are no spells, diseases, poisons, etc. that cause/ remove blindess. And unlike invisibility or chameleon at 100+, blindness only impacts sight, so you are still detectable. So curving it seemed unimportant.

Ouch, but does your mod take blindness into account for SDR features, or it is like in vanilla? Which wasn't that bad, after all blind monks would not detect you unless you made too much noise, the problem is once you did, they would pretty much locate you always as if they had a radar like the other enemies. I can't imagine what being blind is like or how much does it improve your hearing and other senses, but if I'm blinded and the guy I'm trying to hack at silently moves out of the way without me hearing (because I made too much noise myself for example), I imagine I would have a problem to locate him again...

My interest on blindness is because I made a Blindness magic effect with OBME, and added spells and scrolls with the effect for sale and used by enemies. On both the NPCs and the player, it raises the blindness attribute. It also lowers the defense and attack bonus (so they deal less and receive more damage), with effectiveness capped at 100 (so blind monks are already immune to it). On the player, I intended to have an OBGE shader dim the screen up to total blackout at 100, but since creating a shader is out of my skills, I used the lame method of triggering the hit shader to cause impaired vision.

Another question, I see your mod now accounts for detect life effects on NPCs trying to detect you, and you specifically mention vampires. However, vampires don't really use the detect life lesser power, nor does any NPC use detect life spells unless instructed by script. Does your mod assume they have active detect life regardless?

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:26 pm

Ouch, but does your mod take blindness into account for SDR features, or it is like in vanilla?

SDR takes blindness into account in the sight portion of the detection formula. It's a multiplier based on the value. So 30% blind means 70% of sight bonus to detect. 100% blind means 0 sight bonus to detect. Does not affect hearing or skill.

Another question, I see your mod now accounts for detect life effects on NPCs trying to detect you, and you specifically mention vampires. However, vampires don't really use the detect life lesser power, nor does any NPC use detect life spells unless instructed by script. Does your mod assume they have active detect life regardless?

No it does not. If the detect life effect is active, it will work. There are mods that make sure that those that have the detect life ability use them. I don't recall which ones off hand.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:02 pm

The invisibilty settings have stopped working for me in the new version. Enemies behave exactly like vanilla again. To test it. I went ahead and turned sight effect of invisibility to 0 and it did nothing - they still could not see me. Think you'll have to check that again. (I have all settings activated and the console says so, too, just in case you wonder)

edit: I have now ran into some guys that continued to notice me, when they have seen me before casting invisibility, but they were an exception. So sometihing is working, but definitely not as it should.
I have now everything regarding invisibility set to 0, so invisibility should normally have no effect at all, but I can still run around in full heavy armor without even sneaking and nobody will bother. My skills are only somewhere in the 60s.

» Tue May 08, 2012 9:26 pm

The invisibilty settings have stopped working for me in the new version. Enemies behave exactly like vanilla again. To test it. I went ahead and turned sight effect of invisibility to 0 and it did nothing - they still could not see me. Think you'll have to check that again. (I have all settings activated and the console says so, too, just in case you wonder)

edit: I have now ran into some guys that continued to notice me, when they have seen me before casting invisibility, but they were an exception. So sometihing is working, but definitely not as it should.
I have now everything regarding invisibility set to 0, so invisibility should normally have no effect at all, but I can still run around in full heavy armor without even sneaking and nobody will bother. My skills are only somewhere in the 60s.

I was not able to reproduce the issue. When I set all invisibility game settings to 0, I was noticed all the time. My favorite test is the pirate ship on the water front. I drank a bottle of invisibility potion, walked on board and was instantly attacked. The only thing I can think of is that perhaps you have the detection package set to 0 (Easy) which would default you to Oblivion's vanilla detection system. Either that or some other mod is interfering, but I'm not sure how that's possible.

If you don't have your detection package set to Easy, can you post your .ini file settings please with spoiler tags? Or load order? Or both?

Also, make sure you have the latest version (4.0.2).

» Wed May 09, 2012 6:38 am

No problems here on the invisibility either .. Would not having AddActorValues installed be a source of this problem ?

» Wed May 09, 2012 4:07 am

No problems here on the invisibility either .. Would not having AddActorValues installed be a source of this problem ?

If AddActorValues wasn't installed, he would have received an error message box upon loading SDR, as well as many other errors at the console level. The latest version makes sure that OBSE is installed, along with the two required plug-ins, otherwise it pops up error messages regarding what is missing and disables everything. So it's either gotta be on the Easy package, or some sort of conflict is interfering. (I really hoping it's the former)

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:02 pm

I am not on the easy package, I did the last test with the default ini (except invisibilty) and the console said SDR ...(challanging) witth immersion options initialized...
In the meantime I did another test with v 3.1, turned invisibilty sight factor to 0 and right the first guy I came across saw me. You must have changed anything about how it works. I have included my load order but it probably won't give you any insights as the issue persits with a vanilla char and no other mods activated. That others don't have it is very mysterious.

Spoiler

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» Tue May 08, 2012 6:50 pm

If the detect life effect is active, it will work. There are mods that make sure that those that have the detect life ability use them. I don't recall which ones off hand.

Yeah, Supreme Magicka is supposed to have npc's cast their Detect Life spells. Until you added the detection factor into your mod, though, I never once had an npc detect me when I was invisible. But nowadays, I can confirm that vampires do occasionally "see through my invisibility" (or whatever the message is that pops up). Very cool. A cave full of vampires now takes some serious tactical thinking.

By the way, using 4.0.2 I had an instance of Missing Meshes floating over dead bodies that turned out to be sdr tokens. So far this only happened once, but I never had this problem with earlier versions -- even if npc's equipped or dropped their tokens somehow, they would just show up as a normal ring mesh.

» Tue May 08, 2012 5:39 pm

@ Kobal

re: invisibility, there was no change in the core formulas, only in the generic structure and when scripts were called. For example, instead of using quest variables to store user preferences, I use custom game settings created by SneakingDetectionRecalibrated.dll OBSE plugin.

Do me a favor and try some of the debug console options in the ini, specifically the one that displays NPC to Player detection. This will determine whether or not the challenging features detection is working. It's possible that a mod is breaking mine and the detection hook isn't firing. Also, in console mode type in "getgs isdrsinvissighteffperc" and see what returns. You should get the value you have in the .ini file. If not, then something is definitely messing with my mod.

Also, what is the GlobalGameSettings.esm? The name alone sets off a yellow flag for me.

By the way, using 4.0.2 I had an instance of Missing Meshes floating over dead bodies that turned out to be sdr tokens. So far this only happened once, but I never had this problem with earlier versions -- even if npc's equipped or dropped their tokens somehow, they would just show up as a normal ring mesh.

whoops. Hmm. The moment an actor dies the token is supposed to be removed, so I chucked the meshes. I'll fix that.

» Wed May 09, 2012 4:48 am

type in "getgs isdrsinvissighteffperc" and see what returns

>> NOT FOUND

And you mean GlobalSettingsInterface.esm?
Comes from the mod Verbesserte Magiergilde and as far as I know includes only one gamesetting that is used to prevent the player from using mod added abilities like teleport in places where he is not supposed to because it would break quests.

» Wed May 09, 2012 5:00 am

>> NOT FOUND

And you mean GlobalSettingsInterface.esm?
Comes from the mod Verbesserte Magiergilde and as far as I know includes only one gamesetting that is used to prevent the player from using mod added abilities like teleport in places where he is not supposed to because it would break quests.

Something is preventing my custom game settings from being created / populated. Can you provide a list of installed OBSE .dll plug-ins?

» Tue May 08, 2012 10:11 pm

This is my OBSE folder.

ComponentDLLs (includes BorIndMM.dll and debugMM.dll)
AddActorValues.dll
AddActorValues_CS.dll
AVUnCapper.dll
AVUnCapper_CS.dll
Elys_USV.dll
Elys_USV.lip
Elys_USV.mp3
EnhancedMusicControl.dll
FastExit2.dll
OBSE_Elys_Pluggy.dll
OBSE_Elys_Pluggy.dlx
OBSE_Elys_Pluggy.log
SneakingDetectionRecalibrated.dll
SoundCommants.dll
sr_OblivionStutter_Remover.dll
SwitchNightEyeShader.dll

» Tue May 08, 2012 8:32 pm

Hi, saebel. :wavey:

I had an issue similar to dreamed1's missing meshes. For my setup the problem came from an interaction with MMM's carrion rats, and the missing meshes logo disappeared after I started using the “no carrion rats .esp”.

Is there anything you can do on your end that would resolve the issue and not be overly difficult and time consuming? I will gladly do without the rats in order to continue using SDR, but I really miss hearing that squeaky squishing noise when I step on one. :hehe:

» Wed May 09, 2012 6:34 am

Hi, saebel. :wavey:

I had an issue similar to dreamed1's missing meshes. For my setup the problem came from an interaction with MMM's carrion rats, and the missing meshes logo disappeared after I started using the “no carrion rats .esp”.

Is there anything you can do on your end that would resolve the issue and not be overly difficult and time consuming? I will gladly do without the rats in order to continue using SDR, but I really miss hearing that squeaky squishing noise when I step on one. :hehe:

Ah, mine is probably the carrion rats too. I just noticed them hovering over the dead bodies.

» Tue May 08, 2012 4:17 pm

This is my OBSE folder.

ComponentDLLs (includes BorIndMM.dll and debugMM.dll)
AddActorValues.dll
AddActorValues_CS.dll
AVUnCapper.dll
AVUnCapper_CS.dll
Elys_USV.dll
Elys_USV.lip
Elys_USV.mp3
EnhancedMusicControl.dll
FastExit2.dll
OBSE_Elys_Pluggy.dll
OBSE_Elys_Pluggy.dlx
OBSE_Elys_Pluggy.log
SneakingDetectionRecalibrated.dll
SoundCommants.dll
sr_OblivionStutter_Remover.dll
SwitchNightEyeShader.dll

OSR sometimes causes issues. Most folks have said that deleting its .ini and letting it regenerate has solved the problem. (make sure to back up the .ini if you changed the default settings). If that doesn't work, you can try disabling each .dll one at a time by moving it into a "disabled" folder and see what happens. If that doesn't do the trick I'll try to delve deeper into the issue tomorrow when I have some spare time.

» Wed May 09, 2012 2:54 am

Missing mesh is an easy fix. I just have to add it in the construction set. Damned carrion rats. Looks like i'll have to put back in the onDeath handler.

» Wed May 09, 2012 6:05 am

Were you using rats like Better Music System did?

With BMS they were invisible and could not be interacted with, but you could always see them when you cast detect life.

» Wed May 09, 2012 12:04 am

Already tried removing all of them, but helped nothing. And I tried it on another install, there it worked. :confused:

» Wed May 09, 2012 3:40 am

Those CS.dll's have been known to be problematic before, when we were using AVUncapper.dll, also installing the AVuncapper_CS.dll gave me and a few others problems. Un-installing the CS.dll solved the problems previously. I have since uninstalled all things AVUncapper not having any further use for it, but also when installing AddActorValues for the new versions of SDR I did not use the CS.dll for that either (no point if you are not developing in the construcion set) .. Might be worth a shot. I cant remember the issues CS.dll caused.

» Tue May 08, 2012 11:45 pm

Damned carrion rats. Looks like i'll have to put back in the onDeath handler.

If this involves some kind of significant compromising of your code or some such, I, for one, can do without the carrion rats. :mellow:

» Tue May 08, 2012 11:57 pm

If this involves some kind of significant compromising of your code or some such, I, for one, can do without the carrion rats. :mellow:

nah, just gotta point to ring mesh

» Tue May 08, 2012 7:21 pm

No it does not. If the detect life effect is active, it will work. There are mods that make sure that those that have the detect life ability use them. I don't recall which ones off hand.

I can't think of any mod doing that, Supreme Magicka has an invisibility dispel feature if the NPC has active detect life, but that only happens when an enchanted item provides it; or if it is a vampire. I assume it is best to deactivate that feature from SM when using your mod, since SM uses a very 'blunt' method: if you are within range of the detect life radius of such a NPC, your invisiblity effects gets dispelled, whereas your mods takes many more things into account.

Maybe a little mod that equips tokens with a variable magnitude detect life enchantment on NPCs depending on chance and his mysticism skill could be a good complement to SDR then? I may do such a mod when I get Oblivion to work again.